. So Maria, thank you, uh, once again for being on my podcast, being the first guest on my podcast. And just full disclosure for anyone listening, this is the second time we recorded, um, because the first time I forgot to hit record. Uh, so very rookie mistake. Good. It happened when I'm still a rookie.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but I appreciate you being flexible and coming

back. Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was

fun. We'll see how it, it was such a good talk. I know. Yeah, I know. It was so, uh, so disappointing.

Well, we'll see how we do. We'll see how this

time Yeah, we'll see how we do this time. Yeah.

Um, yeah, so can you just, uh, kind of start by telling me a bit about yourself?

Um, sure, yeah. I live in what you're up to. Sausalito on a houseboat. And yet I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden.

And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef in, you know, I moved to Alaska for nine years. Were, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman. I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.

Uh When I was in Alaska, uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage. uh We could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska in the bush. And for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for to fish and game, they wanted to wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the UIC fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

Um What they did with subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have porcini.

um And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Yeah. I mean, how do it almost, it almost seems like at the level we're at, the, the number of people or the way we organize our society, that it's hard for us to get back there.

Right? I mean, you hear about the people like you were talking about up in Alaska. Um, and their focus has always been like on that river, being sustainable on that river cuz that's what they need to do. And we've just like totally lost touch with that in a way that, um, yeah. I wonder if we can get back to it.

I hope

so. Well, yeah. I think people inherently crave it. Yeah, I think so too. And I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day.

Um, and so I think it's inherently a need and a want we have. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own

subject, but did, , we didn't eat anything.

Is that in quotes? Well, yeah. Had air

quotes. Yeah. No, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on, I've done those walks. Right, right. We're gonna Well, but I was like

okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries.

Right. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know, that's a good,

yeah. Like, feel like that's

a good line to draw, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose.

But, but, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what. And those who don't follow rules, it seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

yeah I think, yeah, I think we're on the same page about that kind of stuff. Like it feels like there is a lot of minors lat in Golden Gate Park and I think I have the same approach that you have, right?

Like I never have thought or try to push people to the idea that. You should go out into nature to pick everything to survive. Right? Like it's just like, it's just like, basically, basically like, it's very, very hard to do around here anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. Yeah. You'd be very thin.

Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up and not only not mess it up mm-hmm. Be, but be a regenerative part of that.

And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweet grasp before, you know? Mm-hmm. And that is one reason I loved that book. And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it.

Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah, no, that's a good point. Um That book had quite an effect on me. I really, I thought it was really amazing, just like very beautiful about, like, it's kinda like when you were talking before about, , the indigenous folks you lived near up in Alaska, just like that, just to have that level of connection with nature and like that, like, like that depth of relationship, you know?

Like I didn't grow up with it. , I didn't go out with my grandparents doing this stuff. Um, so it's all like, super new to me. And, and the excitement and the connection is, is, and the learning about it is something that really inspires me, and that's like what I try to communicate to other people too.

Um, but just to have that like intergenerational familiarity, um, and relationship is just like, yeah, it's very beautiful. Yeah. I was very jealous.

Yeah. Um, but yeah. And you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom, professional mushroom hunters is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB been Oregon and his professional matsutake and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land and as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Very well said. Thank you. Very well said. Thank you. Yeah, no, I really like that. No, I mean, I think that's the thing, right? It's like, I think that that's like, that's what I've always focused on. It's kinda like my mission in a lot of ways, like with my dinners or with the walks we do, is, is to help people get a connection with nature, right?

Because like when you have a connection with nature, you're going to protect it. And whether that's like you're a fisherman or a mushroom forager, or you're just kinda like a weekend warrior. Like you hear about this stuff happening, you hear about the clear cuts at your like favorite mushroom spot and like you're gonna fight to stop it.

But if you just go on, like you've, you just kind of like look at it like through glass. Like you don't have that same like emotional

connection. Right, exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat haring outta the San Francisco Bay, like then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways.

like Wouldn't you rather. Eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking.

Yeah. It's an amazing thing. I mean, it really, everyone should do it. It's just really so pleasant.

Love being in the woods. It's just like being in the woods and it's like be, it's like a hike with purpose. Oh, exactly.

You know, bonus. And then you come home and you cook your portini, and I know it's delicious. That's the thing,

you know? And it's, that's just a bonus. Yeah. Too. Like, even if you don't find anything, it's like the best day that I had all month.

Yeah. And then if I find something, it's like, oh, this is like a, a cool little fun thing I also get to do to remember this amazing experience I had today.

Yeah. Um, Let's change directions a little bit. And, uh, talk about the drink you're making that I, that I'm, I'm very obsessed with and I wanna, I wanna try soon.

Well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. Mm-hmm. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flower's blooming.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a micro doser and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime microdosing.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I had a really great experience with Microdosing. Um, I started doing it during Covid, uh, just, you know, I was like a little anxious, a little depressed, a little like isolated, you know, just like a lot of us were. Um, and I started microdosing and like I started playing the guitar. I started drawing more, like, like spending a lot more time, like being like, just like focusing on creative pursuits.

Um, and I found that, that even like, that stayed on even after I stopped. Um, I think it's really, it's like, I think it's like deceptively effective, um, you know, cuz you think like you're supposed to take like a sub, like a, um, I'm losing the word sub perceptual, like sub perceptual dose, right? So like by definition you're not supposed to feel it.

And so people think like, oh, that's not doing anything. But I think it's really effective. Yeah. And I started doing, I started a little business teaching people how to microdose, um, Just to, because I wanted to share it with people. I was like, whoa, this is a crazy, this is amazing. Um, you should really try this.

But yeah, I mean, that's why I was so excited about this drink. It's such a good idea, right? I mean, that's, that's, you know, it's such a good

idea. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024, we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it. You can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it. Can't sell it yet. No. But that's why I'm gonna do a club, is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area.

Legality.

That is, that is very Well, I was just thinking, I wasn't gonna say anything, but like, I mean, but that's what I did for the underground market. Like, everyone was like a member. And this is definitely like in air quotes, right? Right. And I was like, oh yeah, it's fine. We're, it's a me, it's a member only club.

And like, as soon as like any bureaucrat looked into it, they're like, that is not, you can't, like, you can't do that. Right, right. Like, you can't create a club for a specific, like to specifically avoid a law, you know? And I was like, I was like, what? You know, I thought it's fine.

Right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, or not everybody, a lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are we gonna survive through get, get through this?

And, you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P T S D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it and, mm-hmm. Yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it, it was in a really, really bad shape.

And I offered to take him to Peru to do ayahuasca. You know, I was like, mm-hmm. I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was big. It was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like mm-hmm.

He needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know? Mm-hmm. And get those demons out into the jungle. Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right, wow. Uh, which is standard practice.

So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really mu he very much went off kind of the deep end. And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas.

And later one of his sons, my nephew Quek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Um, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died and Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where alcohol is totally normal, you know, all, you know, my nephew's, college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out.

And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. Yeah. But psychedelics are illegal. Yeah. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know? But, so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee, you know?

Mm-hmm. He's like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad. And, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted. And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Uh, everybody has these like everyday traumas, right?

Uh, or like complex P T S D. uh It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with ptsd, T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right? And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with pt, s d, that's great.

Mm-hmm. But uh there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Mm-hmm. And so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of a, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L S D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam.

You know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis. They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so now we're like, okay, the problem was not the drugs.

Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening, and I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, this is something I mentioned last time too. Um, but yeah, I think it's like, I think for me, I mean, even with my, you know, my career has been in, has been about connecting with nature in a lot of ways, right? Um, like foraging cook with forage ingredients. But recently, like my experience Yeah.

With, with Ayahuasca has really, it's really, it's changed my relationship to nature in a way that I'm still figuring out. You know? Like it really does connect you in a way that is so much deeper, right? Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I lo I love that this stuff's getting legalized, you know? I mean, I think I. I think that there are so many people, just like you're talking about, I mean, that is like a super sad story.

Like, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, and like I think there's so many people in these situations that are like struggling with some kind of pain. And Oh, everybody, society,

everybody is struggling with some kinda pain. I'm into it.

Yes. Yeah. You know, but like this kind of deep, yeah, this deep, deep stuff. I'm like, yeah.

Like there's just no answer. You know? No one really has an answer except to like, to sedate you. Um. Right. And it's, and the stuff isn't an experience

actually. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now, you know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't.

You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again. But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges and that's okay, you know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it.

I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment. Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful.

Uh, poverty is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, yeah, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it. I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, but, you know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing.

Um mm-hmm. You know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys. Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond galaxy out there.

And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension, and that's ica. I still don't understand. Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M T, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit.

Uhhuh. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it? Mm-hmm. Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you, you gotta go. Like, if you go and it's not your thing, I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do.

I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really that earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition.

And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life. And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No, I mean it's appreciating, appreciating the place we live and, and what you have. Right. Gratitude

and awe. Right. And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know what I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this hap And now I'm like, you know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at Mount Tam and I have some fresh figs.

You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but, you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. Mm-hmm. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older. And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no.

The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like. I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the crack of dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed is just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe, then like you can really.

Like these other parts of yourself, right? The the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is, the stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones. And the ones I made are way more interesting. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Anything you make yourself with your hands is like, just such a nice object to have. It's always like my favorite, my favorite things.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know? Cuz I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit that, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and on that point, like the, like doing things that you're not necessarily an expert at. Like it's something that I'm curious about you, cuz it's something that I struggle with myself is like, kind of not, not feeling like I'm necessarily the master of anything, right?

Like, I'm kind of like a jack of all trades. Like I'm not really a chef. Like I'm not really a businessman. Um, like I'm not a botanist by any means. Like, I don't know every plant in the forest. Even close to it. Um, I'm, I'm just interested in a lot of different things, you know, and like, and so it's, it's, it kind of makes me uncomfortable sometimes.

I'm like, what am I, like, what's my thing? What's my, like, one thing I'm really good at? And it, and it seems like with you too, I mean, you just do so many things and it seems like you do so many things really, really well. But like, I wonder if you ever struggle with that kind of, that discomfort.

Oh, all the time.

You know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living, cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just uhhuh Yeah. I'd be like,

I could never use chef for myself so uncomfortable. But, you

know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, uh Yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, oh, yeah.

You know, I didn't st anywhere. And I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts. Frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know. Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that.

But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff. And he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going. I'm not even telling him I cook, you know? You know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that. Um, and I think for Stae, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, low stage video of that.

Yeah. Um, and you know, but then also as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some offthe charge writing career either. You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing I, what I love about being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right?

Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning. It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable. Yeah, in a corporate setting, you know, it's very true.

Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management. Like, not gonna happen. Yeah. I do fantasize about it at times Out like, like you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute and I, and then I'm like, No, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. But also like there's something, yeah, I mean, cuz I fantasize about it too, honestly, like getting a job and just the like, how relaxing it would be just to have like one thing to do. Yeah. And I

like mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits, very specific tasks. Yeah. And you would have a retirement.

Totally. Um, takes all kinds Yeah, I know. Takes

all time. I know. Yeah, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are, you know? I, yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

Mm-hmm. I, I feel like, because if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy, you know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, yeah. And you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know? It is a crazy how much some people are like, you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. Mm-hmm. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive, and you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you get like downtown San Francisco now, they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it is a, it's a confusing place. It's a con, it's a confusing time.

There's like more mo it's like Barry has like more money than God and like, you know, more homeless people than I've ever seen. It's really sad. But yeah, no, I mean, I think, yeah, I think other societies probably do it a little bit better. You know, they help support kind of creative endeavors and I mean, it's kinda like the patronage system, right?

Like even back in history, it's like rich people would support artists because they believed art was something positive to exist in the world. Um,

Well, I think, I think, doesn't seem like we've lost it a little bit. Theoretically, everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good, you know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right?

We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that? How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? Mm-hmm. I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so the, so that's it, I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things.

Mm-hmm. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that begin availability for people, you know.

Mm-hmm. I don't, and I don't have the answers to that. Right. I do not have the answers to any of that. But I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. Mm-hmm. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um mm-hmm. And so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sfm, o m a, um mm-hmm.

Or, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company. You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

Yeah, no, definitely be nice to move that direction. Yeah, speak. Well, and speaking of creativity, you just, uh, finished a new

book, right? I did. Well, it's a cookbook and we're, tell me about it. Yes, I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle.

So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water, shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff. So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited.

It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

Oh, that's very cool. That must be such a process.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, yeah, this is my fir So much work. First cookbook. I have several prose books written. Yeah, yeah. Published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work is you have to test everything, you know?

Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage foods, sometimes you can't buy the food. You have to go find the food. Mm-hmm. And then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore.

Oh, no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it, and then they're gonna give it to their friends. And so it's almost this like, three dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun, and it's shot in.

Alaska, uh, LUMY Island, Washington, and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing a wild food camp in Alaska. Um, the Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived, and my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls a Smokey Bay chalet, and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents, and then a sauna right on the water.

So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year and we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down a whole salmon opening, oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that, yeah, sounds fun. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Alaska's ridiculous.

It's like a different place in time. It's, and yeah. And ho and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life. It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance and it, it's, mm, it's phenomenal. And then Lumy Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Cool. When's that? Uh, that is in July. Lemme pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And let's see, Lemy Island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I, I have some, some different ones. I have the Urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know, what, what, what other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, yeah, I'm trying to figure out, like, could see that, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally phy physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

Mm-hmm. And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon, where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain.

And then the sun came out and we had two days of sun. And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Mm-hmm. Uh mm-hmm. So, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing.

It's, you know, California we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit. Yeah. But definitely not. Yeah.

And this is all on your website?

Yeah. So it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is Okay.

Uh, my personal website.

Cool. Yeah, those camps sound super fun. They are, they're I'd, I'd love

to go. Well, you should come. I'd like, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Yeah.

I'd be wanting to go

to Alaska forever. Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. Yeah. It's like North America 200 years ago.

I mean, there's uhhuh, fewer than a million people live there and it's three times the size of Texas. Yeah. But almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down, so, so Uhhuh, you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at Schoff Straits and.

Miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down Chico straits. Wow. Yeah. And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yeah, we can go off that. Um, cool. Well, thank you so much, Maria, for being game to record this podcast again and for being my first guest. Um, yeah, it was a great conversation. Yes. Thank you for having me. And I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food, so.

Totally. Yeah. No, I love what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, cool. All right. Thank you Iso. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks Maria. Uhhuh, bye.

Yep, good. How are you doing? Good. Yes, we did know that's heart.

Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church. I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Yeah.

Yeah. They, I haven't heard back from them. And they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that. Um, but I get it at the same time, like, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of rules.

Yes. Sitting church-like, like sitting upright in a well lit space. Yeah. It's very different. Uh, it can be a little rough when it's rough. You know, like, like if you're not feeling well, you have to get up and walk past all these people and, you know, use the bathroom. Uh, it's brightly lit. They play a little music and then they go into a question answer.

So I've had one time when the medicine was really strong, I felt kind of nauseous and it was a really difficult, not good experience. But then I've had times where you're like, the medicine's a medicine and it's beautiful and it kind of gives you what you need. Um, so, so it's a mixed experience. It's, it is, uh, it's, but it's accessible, it's affordable, it's legal.

No, no, not really. Some people do. And you know what I thought about doing, but I didn't do, cuz I'm still a guest. I'm not a member is bringing a playlist on my music. Cuz when, when it's difficult for me listening to music moves me through it. So like the hippie circle I go to here, the musician, they're all live musicians, the shaman and all are helpers.

So it's just phenomenal music and it just, oh, it's super important. So this, I thought, well, I'll bring a playlist, I'll go sit outside and listen to it if I have to. Um, but no, these people you can do it twice a month. Right. So these are people who are really, really familiar with the medicine.

No. No. And you know, and I don't really, you know, and everybody purges differently, you know, so it could be crying and, you know, it could be a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think it's sort of time to do it every two weeks. So it stays in your system. So it's kind of continually in your system working on you?

Um,

not most, but it's, it's offered. Yeah. It's totally, it's offered for that. So, yeah, so you could have it continually in your system. And then, you know, a, and it doesn't mean people aren't still purging, but these guys up front, it's sort of like your shaman, right? Who's leading your, your circle would not be purging during it, you know?

And so these guys are just kind of doing their thing. And I, you know, and some people do, but it isn't, it's not like the circles where it's encouraged and that's supposed to happen. And it's a little bit of a bummer because, um, I feel sometimes like you can't go as deep as you should because you can't, you don't feel comfortable purging.

Well,

well, well, that's what they, they do this and, and very much so. And it's based on a Brazilian man who started this church, the U D V or something, dme and, uh, and so it's got the same ceremony. It's a little bit of an offshoot of the Catholic church. Uh, but he was an alcoholic rubber tapper in a small town in Brazil and discovered ayahuasca and started, started the church down there.

And it, it was really like, uh, and everybody had to wear uniform. Um, but it was. You know, it, it's highly structured, uh, feels a little bit patriarchal, which is also kind of why I prefer my hippie structure, you know? Cause I'm like, it's such a feminine, uh, experience. But yeah, so, so it's very controlled and, uh, rigidly.

So, so, you know, that's the other part. And again, you know, yes, they need to do, like, you have to ask permission to speak, you know, for the question answer kind of thing.

Oh, yeah. No, it's, it, it's tough. It's tough and, yeah, no, it's,

I know. No, it's really like, it's really different. Uh, and it, it's not for everybody. Definitely because it's kind of like, you know, I, I don't know, like I have a friend who I go to my other circle with a lot and he's like, he always takes a lot and there's, he always needs a helper throughout it. And there's, you know, and he'll breathe really heavily and then there'll be an email that goes out, like, um, Hey, you guys we're gonna try not to breathe really heavily during ceremony.

He'll tell, you know, he's always that guy and you cannot be that guy at this place. Right. Um, and so I have to say, being a low maintenance person during these circles, I do appreciate it a little bit, uh, that, you know, and, and, and I think it's great that there's a safe space to cry really hard and throw up.

And God knows I went through that for years, but this is a little more, uh, I don't know, a little more 2.0. Uh, but yeah, so it's a different experience. It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say it's better. I wouldn't say it's worse. Uh, it's not for everybody. Um, but the medicine is still amazing. And, and that's really, you know, like I, I just, I can't see ever really wanting to go by other rules or wear the uniform.

But I, I do, I have gone there and then had these amazing, just very hard opening experiences.

Yeah. Well, and then Right, right. I, yeah. That's it. Exactly. And, and it's, it's very odd because when you think, like, to think it's like, how, how did it become legal? And they bring barrels marked, uh, Waka tea through customs. Yeah, yeah. And I know, so they took it to Supreme. To the Supreme Court Yeah. And won.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right. But we That's just like that, right? Yeah.

Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. It's, it's very, yeah. It's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping and Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community. And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking IOSCO on a regular basis.

So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with foraging. Yeah.

Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was fun. We'll see how Yes, I know. Well, let's see how we do. We'll see. How do this.

Um, sure, yeah. I live in Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and God, I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden. And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef. And, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years where, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman.

I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA and creative writing. And I eventually made my way to the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays.

And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco. And the food, of course. Uh, so I just, and I did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in, in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, Uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage.

Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away. It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and mins, uh, or not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska, in the bush, and for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for Department of Fishing game, they wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the Yik fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up. And Angie's standing outside the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys have this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dousing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, no, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and n e k a, um, I dunno if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep, visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around, eat them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food. And what they did was subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have portini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earth's hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land, they fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Well, I think people inherently crave it. You know, I mean, and I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress. It increases your dopamine and serotonin.

Like, like we need it. We crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's overextended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or, you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda stuff.

Right? Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well, what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, I, I, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning or the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own subject, but, well, yeah.

Air quotes, no. Yeah, no, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on in trouble. Right, right. We're not gonna, you know. Well, but I was like, okay, this, these are invasive blackberries, oh, sorry. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries. Right. Because those are just gonna get, spread by birds, become more invasive.

Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass. Oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know? Yeah. Like it, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose. But, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what.

And those who don't follow rules that seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

I am here. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm here. I'm just giving a pause. Just pausing. Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. It is, uh, extremely thin, but it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Sebastian Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds, and we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and.

Just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid. And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here.

So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it. Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to? One state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit.

It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland? Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, was saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up? And not only, not mess it up, be, but be a regenerative part of that. And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweetgrass before, you know, and that is one reason I loved that book.

And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it. Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist. You know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss, and you know, it's, It's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing, right. And going to the same place year after year and observing.

Um, but it's, it, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young, I was like, science, science, what am I, what am I ever gonna use? Science? Why, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. So, so that's one of my big regrets, you know? Exactly. And I'm like, you know, I dunno, 18 year old college student.

Like, this is stupid, you know, now I'm like, oh no. Um, but yeah, and you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom professional mushroom hunters, is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a. Very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB in Oregon and his professional matsu, Taki and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the Warren Vietnam, they took this idea from Agent Orange. And after they clear cut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood for the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land. And as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Thank.

Exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat Hering outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan. That was our commercial fishery. And they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or, you know, pet food or something.

But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways. And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay?

And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point instead of. Yeah, that's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know, you're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals. Cause Yes, we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms.

I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can, picking mushrooms. And then they've got tons of mushrooms. I just give them to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like this is what I do this time of year and what a great and healthy addiction to have, you know?

Oh,

oh, exactly. And then, and then the bonus, and then you come home and you cook your portini and they're frigging delicious, you know? Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah. It is, and it's, and it's the levels of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11. And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think, I think my classroom is bad enough, right? And then online classes. But so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has gotten a little too primal here. We got, we've gotten. But, uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her Procini, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. I know. Isn't that awesome? And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

Uh, not so much over here, Marin.

Well, they get, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right? That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful.

And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women filled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some? And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you.

But God, they're beautiful and delicious and nobody wants 'em. So that's one of those other nobody wants.

Sure.

Yeah, well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland. Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was a Burning man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons.

But, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol. Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day.

So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol. And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year.

Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible. It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff.

And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your sh blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these are things the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, Apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but uh, I. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes them most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail, right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flowers blooming.

Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a microdose and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime, microdosing.

Sub perceptual,

right? I mean, that's, that's a, yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024 we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it, you can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it.

No, but that's why I'm gonna do a club is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area. Legality.

Right, right,

right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, oh, not everybody, A lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are you gonna survive through get, get through this?

And you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P ts D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it. And yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it was in a really, really bad shape and.

I offered to take him to Peru to do Ayahuasca. You know, I was like, I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was, it was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like he needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know, and get those demons out into the jungle.

Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right. Uh, which is standard practice. So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really, he very much went off kind of the deep end.

And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas. And later one of his sons, my nephew Ek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Uh, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died.

And yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where, Alcohol is totally normal. You know, all, you know, my nephew's college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out. And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. But psychedelics are illegal. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know?

But so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee. You know, he, he is like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad and, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted.

And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Everybody has these like everyday traumas, right? Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with P T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right?

And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with ptsd ts, that's great. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Um, and so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L s D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam, you know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis.

They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? And so now we're like, ok, the problem was not the drugs. Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening.

And I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, everybody. Everybody is struggling with some kind of pain. Yes. You know?

Right. And it's part, and it's part of the human experience. Yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now. You know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't. You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again.

But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges, and that's okay. You know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it. I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine, and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment.

Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful. Uh, party is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it.

I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, I, but. You know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing. Um, you know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys.

Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond Galaxy out there. And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension and that's ica I still don't understand.

Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M t, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it?

Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you gotta go. Like, if you go in, it's not your thing. I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do. I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really.

That earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition. And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life.

And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us,

right? And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know, I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this happened.

And now I'm like, You know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at mount ta and I have some fresh figs. You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older.

And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no. The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like, I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the KRA and Dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed has just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of. Give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe then, like, you can really like these other parts of yourself, right?

The, the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is this stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So, I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones, and the ones I made are way more interesting.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know, because I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit, that, you know, it's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Oh, all the time, you know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just, I feel like now. But, you know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, I, you know, I didn't st anywhere and I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts, frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know.

Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that. But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff, and he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going, I'm not even telling him I cook, you know, you know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that.

Um, and I think foraging, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, you know, any of that. Um, and, you know, but then also, as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some off the charge writing career either.

You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful, and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing. I, what I love about. Being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right? Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning.

It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable in a corporate setting, you know? Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management.

Like, not gonna happen. I do fantasize about it at times out, like, like, you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute. And I, and then I'm like, no, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. And I, and you mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits and you would have a retirement. Um, yeah, I know, I know, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are. You know, I, unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

I, I feel like, cuz if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy. You know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, and you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know, it is a crazy how much some people, like you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive. And you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you like downtown San Francisco now they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Well, I think, I think, well, no, theoretically everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good. You know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right? We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that?

How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so that, so that's it.

I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that be availability for people, you know, I, I, I don't, and I don't have the answers to that, right?

I do not have the answers to any of that, but I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um, and so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sf, M O M A, um, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company.

You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

I did well to cookbook and we're, uh, yes. I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle. So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff.

So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited. It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, this is my fir first cookbook. I have several prose books written and published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work cuz you have to test everything, you know? Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage food, sometimes you can't buy the food.

You have to go find the food and then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore. Oh no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it and then they're gonna give it to their friends.

And so it's almost this like, three-dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun. And it's shot in Alaska, uh, Lumi Island, Washington and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing, uh, wild Food camp in Alaska. Um, Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived.

And my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls the Smokey Bay chalet and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents and then a sauna right on the water. So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year.

And we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down the whole salmon, opening oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, I mean, Alaska's ridiculous. It's like a different place in time. It's, and, and, and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life.

It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance, and it, it's, it's phenomenal. And then Le Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild, and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year, and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Uh, that is in July. Let me pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And, let's see, let me, island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I ki I have some, some different ones. I have the urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know what, what. What other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, so I'm trying to figure out like, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally physic physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain and then the sun came out and we had two days of sun.

And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Uh, so, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing. It's, you know, California, we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit, but definitely not.

Yeah, so it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is, uh, my personal website.

They are, they're, well, you should come. And they're, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. It's like North America 200 years ago. I mean, there's fewer than a million people live there, and it's three times the size of Texas and, but almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down.

So, so you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at she off Straits and miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down. She off straits and Yeah.

And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yes. Thank you for having me, and I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course, with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food. So, yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, all right. Thank you Iso. Okay. Ah-huh. Bye.

Hello, Maria? Yep. Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you doing? I'm good. Good. We made

it back. Yes, we did. Okay. We're, it's a heartbreaker.

We're recording as we speak. I'm looking at the thing

saying it's recording. Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church.

I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you and they're comfortable with.

Um, yeah, they, I haven't heard back from them and they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that.

Um, but I get it at the same time. Like, yeah, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of

rules. 70 or 80

people Yes. Sitting church-like,

like

sitting upright in a well-lit space.

Whoa. Yeah. That's a different kind of experience.

It's very different. What's that like?

Uh, it can be a little rough when it's rough, you know? Yeah. Like, like if you're not feeling well, you have to get up and walk past all these people and you know, it's the bathroom, uh, it's brightly lit. They play a little music and then they go into a question answer. So I've had one time when the medicine was really strong, I felt kind of nauseous and it was a really difficult, not good experience.

Mm-hmm. But then I've had times where you're like, the medicine's a medicine and it's beautiful and it kind of gives you what you need. Um, so, so it's a mixed experience. It's, it is, uh, it's, but it's accessible, it's affordable, it's legal.

Huh. That's really inter like

so are peop a lot of people throwing

up? No. No, not really. Some people do. And you know what I thought about doing, but I didn't do it cuz I'm still a guest. I'm not a member is bringing a playlist on my music cuz when, when it's difficult for me listening to music moves me through it. Mm-hmm. So like the hippie circle I go to here, the musician, they're all live musicians.

This shaman and all are helpers. So it's just phenomenal music and it just, yeah, it's important. Oh, it's super important. So this, I thought, well, I'll bring a playlist. I'll go sit outside and listen to it if I have to. Um, but no, these people you can do it twice a month. Right. So these are people who are really, really familiar with the medicine.

Uhhuh. Yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess in my experience and just from talking to people who are even much more experienced, that Yeah. Throwing up doesn't necessarily have to do with experience level, you know, like it's just often just

part of it. No, and you know, and I don't really, you know, and everybody purges differently.

Yeah. You know, so it could be crying and, you know, it could be a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think it's sort of time to do it every two weeks so it stays in your system. So it's kind of continually in your system working on you.

Um, so most people are doing it every two weeks, just indefinitely.

Not most, but

it's, it's offered members. Yeah. Yeah. It's totally, it's offered for that. So, yeah. So you could have it continually in your system and then, you know, a and it doesn't mean people aren't still purging, but these guys up front, it's sort of like you're shaman, right? Who's leading your, your circle would not be purging during it.

Yeah, yeah. You know? Huh. And so these guys are just kind of doing their thing, and I, you know, and some people do, but it isn't, it's not like the circles where it's encouraged and that's supposed to happen. And it's a little bit of a bummer because, um, I feel sometimes like you can't go as deep as you should because you can't, you don't feel comfortable purging.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like.

That, yeah. Is often a large part of the experience and not that it even always happens, but yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I, it feels like, it feels like, for me, in my experience, like something that feels super important with Ayahuasca is like, have having someone kind of like manage the, like, manage the space, you know, whether that's like managing the energy in the space or however you wanna look at it, like, like the music and it's like they're, they're like manipulating the experience in some way.

Like they're, they're guiding

the experience. Well, that's what they, they do this and, and very much so. And it's based on, uh, Brazilian man who started this church, the U D V or something, dme and, uh, and so it's got the same ceremony. It's a little bit of an offshoot of the Catholic church. Uh, but he was an alcoholic rubber tapper in a small town in Brazil and discovered ayahuasca and started, started the church down there.

And it, it was really like, uh, and everybody had to wear a uniform. Um, but it was. You know, it, it's highly structured. Uh, it feels a little bit patriarchal, which is also kind of why I prefer my hippie structure, you know? Cause I'm like, it's such a feminine, uh, experience. But yeah, so, so it's very controlled and, uh, rigidly.

So, so, you know, that's the other part. And again, you know, yes, they need to do, like, you have to ask permission to speak, you know, for the question answer kind of thing.

Hmm. Man, I can't imagine Yeah. Having questions and answers even. Oh yeah, no, it's tough. You know, it's tough, like tough so much about it that I like.

Yeah, no, it's into my, from my, I'm like trying to like listen to this through the lens of like, my experience. I'm like, I can't imagine

that. I know. No, it's really like, it's really different. Uh, and it, it's not for everybody. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Because it's kind of like, You know, I, I don't know. Like I have a friend who I go to my other circle with a lot and he's like, he always takes a lot and there's, he always needs a helper throughout it.

And there's, you know, and he'll breathe really heavily and then there'll be an email that goes out, like, um, Hey, you guys, we're gonna try not to breathe really heavily during ceremony, tell, you know, and he's always that guy, Uhhuh, and you cannot be that guy at this place. Right. Um, and so I have to say, being a low maintenance person during these circles, I do appreciate it a little bit.

Mm-hmm. Uh, that, you know, and, and, and I think it's great that there's a safe space to cry really hard and throw up. And God knows I went through that for years, but this is a little more, uh, I don't know, a little more 2.0. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah. So it's a different experience. It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say it's better.

I wouldn't say it's worse. Uh, it's not for everybody. Um, but the medicine is still amazing. Mm-hmm. And, and that's really, you know, like I, I just, I can't see ever really wanting to go by other rules or wear the uniform. But I, I do, I have gone there and then had these amazing, just very hard opening experiences.

Hmm. Yeah. I guess, you know, It takes all kinds. There's many different approaches to well, this

kind of work. Right, right, right. You know? Yeah. That's it. Exactly. And, and it's, it's very odd because when you think, like, to think it's like, how, how did it become legal? And they bring barrels marked, uh, Waka tea through customs.

Wow. Yeah. Yep. Interesting. I know. So they took it to Supreme. To the Supreme Court.

Wow. Yeah. And won. Very interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So just so you know all that, I mean, um, I have been recording,

um Right, right. But we that's just like

that. Totally. Like, yeah. It's just kind of like we're moving into it. Yeah.

But I kind of loved some of that. Like, so maybe we'll see, and then I'll talk, I'll send it to you and see like, are you comfortable with this part being in here? And if you're saying, uh, like, not really, then

I'll cut it out. Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys

too. Totally. Yeah. I, what I think is really interesting about it, not even necessarily the, like, name of the church or any of that stuff, is just the, like the different approach to working with Ayahuasca.

It's not, I like never would've imagined that people would take it in that environment. Yeah. Um, yeah, so it's really interesting to me.

Yeah. Personally. Yeah, it's, it's very, yeah, it's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping. Um, oh, cool. Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community.

And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking ayahuasca on a regular basis. So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Wow. Um, cool. Well, let's, uh, let's start over. Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with, Hey, we'll start, let's start rewarding. No, talk about that too.

Um. So Maria, thank you, uh, once again for being on my podcast, being the first guest on my podcast. And just full disclosure for anyone listening, this is the second time we recorded, um, because the first time I forgot to hit record. Uh, so very rookie mistake. Good. It happened when I'm still a rookie.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but I appreciate you being flexible and coming

back. Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was

fun. We'll see how it, it was such a good talk. I know. Yeah, I know. It was so, uh, so disappointing.

Well, we'll see how we do. We'll see how this

time Yeah, we'll see how we do this time. Yeah.

We'll cover the same ground in different ways maybe. Yeah. Um, yeah, so can you just, uh, kind of start by telling me a bit about yourself?

Um, sure, yeah. I live in what you're up to. Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and yet I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden.

And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef in, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years. Were, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman. I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA in creative writing.

And I eventually made my way. To the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays. And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco.

And the food of course. Uh, so I just, and it did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage. Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away.

It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and miners, uh, are not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska in the bush. And for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for to fish and game, they wanted to wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the UIC fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up and Angie's standing outside in the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys had this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dowing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, ah, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and N e k a, um, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around eating them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food and what they did with subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have porcini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earths hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land. They fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do it almost, it almost seems like sometimes that we, what am I trying to say? Like that, that we, at the level we're at, like the, the number of people or the way we organize our society, that it's hard for us to get back there.

Right? I mean, like you hear about the people like you were talking about up in Alaska. Um, and like their focus has always been like on that river, being sustainable on that river cuz that's what they need to do. And we've just like totally lost touch with that in a way that, um, yeah. I wonder if we can get back to it.

I hope

so. Well, yeah. I think people inherently crave it. Yeah, I think so too. And I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress.

It increases your dopamine and serotonin. Like, like we need it, we crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's over-extended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda

stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

We used to like catch crawfish in the like little ponds near me and stuff. I remember that. Right. Playing with frogs

and stuff. Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning of the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own

subject, but did, like, we didn't eat anything.

Is that in quotes? Well, yeah. Had air

quotes. Yeah. No, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on, I've done those walks. Right, right. We're gonna Well, but I was like this, these

are invasive. Oh wait, I lost it here. Wait, I lost you for some, oh, sorry. Can you hear me? Oh wait,

I can hear you now. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries.

Right. Because those are just gonna get spread by birds, become more invasive. Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know, that's a good,

yeah. Like, feel like that's

a good line to draw, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose.

But, but, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what. And those who don't follow rules, it seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, it's very true. Um, Did I lose you today

I'm here.

Oh, you're here? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm here. I'm just giving up, just

pausing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was a good pause. Yeah. Um, yeah, totally. I mean, I think, yeah, I think we're on the same page about that kind of stuff. Like it feels like there is a lot of minors lat in Golden Gate Park and the, and I think I have the same approach that you have, right?

Like I never have thought or try to push people to the idea that. You should go out into nature to pick everything to survive. Right? Like it's just like, it's just like, basically, basically like, it's very, very hard to do around here anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. Yeah. You'd be very thin.

Extremely thin. But it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Saasta Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds. And we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and we're just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid.

And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. Mm-hmm. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here. So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it.

Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to one state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Mm-hmm. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit. It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland.

Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, it's a complicated issue. But yeah, I mean it's, I was just reading, so this article, the woman who teaches our seaweed classes actually just sent me this article that she was in. She just like, wanted me to look at it cuz they mentioned us.

Um, and you know, it was about all of the foraging pressure in, in, uh, salt Point, basically. Mm-hmm. And it's like a real thing, right? Because a lot of people are getting interested in foraging, which is great. Um, But the only place they can go in the entire state is this one teeny little park. Like of course there's gonna be pressure there, you know, but like you're saying, it's just like, it's very artificial

pressure.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there, and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, is saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind.

You know? That's their argument

really. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. They're like, human beings go into the forest and spread

disease. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up and not only not mess it up mm-hmm. Be, but be a regenerative part of that.

And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweet grasp before, you know? Mm-hmm. And that is one reason I loved that book. And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it.

Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah, no, that book, yeah, we were talking about it last time. Um, yeah, that book had quite an effect on me. I really, I thought it was really amazing, just like very beautiful about, like, it's kinda like when you were talking before about, um, the, uh, the indigenous folks you lived near up in Alaska, just like that, just to have that level of connection with nature and like that, like, like that depth of relationship, you know?

Like I think I, and I think both of us, like we have, we have a lot more knowledge than a lot of people about this stuff, but like, me personally, like I didn't grow up with it. Like, I didn't go out with my grandparents doing this stuff. Um, so it's all like, super new to me. And, and like the excitement and the connection is, is, and the learning about it is something that really inspires me, and that's like what I try to communicate to other people too.

Um, but just to have that like inter like intergenerational f like familiarity, um, and relationship is just like, yeah, it's very beautiful. Yeah. I was very jealous.

Yeah. You know? Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist, you know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss and, you know, it's, it, it's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing Right.

And going to the same place year after year and observing. Um, but it's. It, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young I was like, science sci, what am I, when am I ever gonna use science? What, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. Mm-hmm.

So that's one of my big regrets. Yeah. You

know, science is the way the

world works. Exactly. You know, I dunno, an 18 year old college student, I'm like, this is stupid. Yeah. You know? Now I'm like, oh no. Yeah. Um, but yeah. And you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom, professional mushroom hunters is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB been Oregon and his professional matsutake and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the war in Vietnam, they took this idea from Asian orange. And after they clearcut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood. For the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. Mm-hmm. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land and as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Very well said. Thank you. Very well said. Thank you. Yeah, no, I really like that. No, I mean, I think that's the thing, right? It's like, I think that that's like, that's what I've always focused on. It's kinda like my mission in a lot of ways, like with my dinners or with the walks we do, is, is to help people get a connection with nature, right?

Because like when you have a connection with nature, you're going to protect it. And whether that's like you're a fisherman or a mushroom forager, or you're just kinda like a weekend warrior. Like you hear about this stuff happening, you hear about the clear cuts at your like favorite mushroom spot and like you're gonna fight to stop it.

But if you just go on, like you've, you just kind of like look at it like through glass. Like you don't have that same like emotional

connection. Right, exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat haring outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan.

That was our commercial fishery and they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or you know, pet food or something. But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways.

And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay? And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather. Eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point

instead of That's what they were hinting at in that article a little

bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know? You're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals.

Yeah. No, that's because we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms. I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can picking mushrooms, and then they've got tons of mushrooms.

They just give 'em to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like mm-hmm. It's like this is what I do this time of year, and what a great and healthy addiction to have. You know?

Yeah. It's an amazing thing. I mean, it really, everyone should do it. It's just really so pleasant.

Love being in the woods. It's just like being in the woods and it's like be, it's like a hike with purpose. Oh, exactly.

You know, bonus. And then you come home and you cook your portini, and I know it's delicious. That's the thing,

you know? And it's, that's just a bonus. Yeah. Too. Like, even if you don't find anything, it's like the best day that I had all month.

Yeah. And then if I find something, it's like, oh, this is like a, a cool little fun thing I also get to do to remember this amazing experience I had today. Yeah. It's just such, it's just such a nice thing to do with your time. It is. It really is. And it's some levels

of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11.

And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think everyone does a classroom is bad enough. Right. And then online classes, but, so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has got a little too primal here. We got, we got. But uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her pro, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. Aw, that's very sweet. I know. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

That's what most people do anyway. You know,

like, eh, not so much over here, Marin. We we'll be,

we're a little stingy with there. Well,

they, with their free, well, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right.

That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful. And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women pulled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some?

And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you. But God, they're beautiful and delicious. Yeah. I've been there and nobody wants 'em, so Yeah. That's one of those other, like nobody wants.

Totally. Yeah. Um, Let's change directions a little bit. Sure. And, uh, talk about the drink you're making that I, that I'm, I'm very obsessed with and I wanna, I wanna try soon.

Well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland.

Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was at Burning Man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons, but, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol.

Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day. So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol.

And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year. Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible.

It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff. And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs. Because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these, these are things I, the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but. And psilocybin. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes the most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail. Right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. Mm-hmm. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flower's blooming.

Mm-hmm. Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a micro doser and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime microdosing.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I had a really great experience with Microdosing. Um, I started doing it during Covid, uh, just, you know, I was like a little anxious, a little depressed, a little like isolated, you know, just like a lot of us were. Um, and I started microdosing and like I started playing the guitar. I started drawing more, like, like spending a lot more time, like being like, just like focusing on creative pursuits.

Um, and I found that, that even like, that stayed on even after I stopped. Um, I think it's really, it's like, I think it's like deceptively effective, um, you know, cuz you think like you're supposed to take like a sub, like a, um, I'm losing the word sub perceptual, like sub perceptual dose, right? So like by definition you're not supposed to feel it.

And so people think like, oh, that's not doing anything. But I think it's really effective. Yeah. And I started doing, I started a little business teaching people how to microdose, um, Just to, because I wanted to share it with people. I was like, whoa, this is a crazy, this is amazing. Um, you should really try this.

But yeah, I mean, that's why I was so excited about this drink. It's such a good idea, right? I mean, that's, that's, you know, it's such a good

idea. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024, we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it. You can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it. Can't sell it yet. No. But that's why I'm gonna do a club, is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area.

Legality.

That is, that is very Well, I was just thinking, I wasn't gonna say anything, but like, I mean, but that's what I did for the underground market. Like, everyone was like a member. And this is definitely like in air quotes, right? Right. And I was like, oh yeah, it's fine. We're, it's a me, it's a member only club.

And like, as soon as like any bureaucrat looked into it, they're like, that is not, you can't, like, you can't do that. Right, right. Like, you can't create a club for a specific, like to specifically avoid a law, you know? And I was like, I was like, what? You know, I thought it's fine.

Right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, or not everybody, a lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are we gonna survive through get, get through this?

And, you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P T S D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it and, mm-hmm. Yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it, it was in a really, really bad shape.

And I offered to take him to Peru to do ayahuasca. You know, I was like, mm-hmm. I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was big. It was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like mm-hmm.

He needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know? Mm-hmm. And get those demons out into the jungle. Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right, wow. Uh, which is standard practice.

So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really mu he very much went off kind of the deep end. And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas.

And later one of his sons, my nephew Quek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Um, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died and Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where alcohol is totally normal, you know, all, you know, my nephew's, college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out.

And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. Yeah. But psychedelics are illegal. Yeah. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know? But, so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee, you know?

Mm-hmm. He's like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad. And, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted. And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Uh, everybody has these like everyday traumas, right?

Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with ptsd, T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right? And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with pt, s d, that's great.

Mm-hmm. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Mm-hmm. And so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of a, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L S D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam.

You know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis. They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so now we're like, okay, the problem was not the drugs.

Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening, and I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, this is something I mentioned last time too. Um, but yeah, I think it's like, I think for me, I mean, even with my, you know, my career has been in, has been about connecting with nature in a lot of ways, right? Um, like foraging cook with forage ingredients. But recently, like my experience Yeah.

With, with Ayahuasca has really, it's really, it's changed my relationship to nature in a way that I'm still figuring out. You know? Like it really does connect you in a way that is so much deeper, right? Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I lo I love that this stuff's getting legalized, you know? I mean, I think I. I think that there are so many people, just like you're talking about, I mean, that is like a super sad story.

Like, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, and like I think there's so many people in these situations that are like struggling with some kind of pain. And Oh, everybody, society,

everybody is struggling with some kinda pain. I'm into it.

Yes. Yeah. You know, but like this kind of deep, yeah, this deep, deep stuff. I'm like, yeah.

Like there's just no answer. You know? No one really has an answer except to like, to sedate you. Um. Right. And it's, and the stuff isn't an experience

actually. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now, you know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't.

You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again. But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges and that's okay, you know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it.

I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment. Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful.

Uh, poverty is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, yeah, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it. I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, but, you know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing.

Um mm-hmm. You know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys. Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond galaxy out there.

And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension, and that's ica. I still don't understand. Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M T, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit.

Uhhuh. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it? Mm-hmm. Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you, you gotta go. Like, if you go and it's not your thing, I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do.

I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really that earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition.

And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life. And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No, I mean it's appreciating, appreciating the place we live and, and what you have. Right. Gratitude

and awe. Right. And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know what I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this hap And now I'm like, you know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at Mount Tam and I have some fresh figs.

You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but, you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. Mm-hmm. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older. And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no.

The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like. I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the crack of dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed is just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe, then like you can really.

Like these other parts of yourself, right? The the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is, the stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones. And the ones I made are way more interesting. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Anything you make yourself with your hands is like, just such a nice object to have. It's always like my favorite, my favorite things.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know? Cuz I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit that, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and on that point, like the, like doing things that you're not necessarily an expert at. Like it's something that I'm curious about you, cuz it's something that I struggle with myself is like, kind of not, not feeling like I'm necessarily the master of anything, right?

Like, I'm kind of like a jack of all trades. Like I'm not really a chef. Like I'm not really a businessman. Um, like I'm not a botanist by any means. Like, I don't know every plant in the forest. Even close to it. Um, I'm, I'm just interested in a lot of different things, you know, and like, and so it's, it's, it kind of makes me uncomfortable sometimes.

I'm like, what am I, like, what's my thing? What's my, like, one thing I'm really good at? And it, and it seems like with you too, I mean, you just do so many things and it seems like you do so many things really, really well. But like, I wonder if you ever struggle with that kind of, that discomfort.

Oh, all the time.

You know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living, cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just uhhuh Yeah. I'd be like,

I could never use chef for myself so uncomfortable. But, you

know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, uh Yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, oh, yeah.

You know, I didn't st anywhere. And I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts. Frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know. Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that.

But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff. And he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going. I'm not even telling him I cook, you know? You know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that. Um, and I think for Stae, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, low stage video of that.

Yeah. Um, and you know, but then also as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some offthe charge writing career either. You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing I, what I love about being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right?

Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning. It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable. Yeah, in a corporate setting, you know, it's very true.

Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management. Like, not gonna happen. Yeah. I do fantasize about it at times Out like, like you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute and I, and then I'm like, No, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. But also like there's something, yeah, I mean, cuz I fantasize about it too, honestly, like getting a job and just the like, how relaxing it would be just to have like one thing to do. Yeah. And I

like mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits, very specific tasks. Yeah. And you would have a retirement.

Totally. Um, takes all kinds Yeah, I know. Takes

all time. I know. Yeah, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are, you know? I, yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

Mm-hmm. I, I feel like, because if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy, you know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, yeah. And you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know? It is a crazy how much some people are like, you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. Mm-hmm. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive, and you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you get like downtown San Francisco now, they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it is a, it's a confusing place. It's a con, it's a confusing time.

There's like more mo it's like Barry has like more money than God and like, you know, more homeless people than I've ever seen. It's really sad. But yeah, no, I mean, I think, yeah, I think other societies probably do it a little bit better. You know, they help support kind of creative endeavors and I mean, it's kinda like the patronage system, right?

Like even back in history, it's like rich people would support artists because they believed art was something positive to exist in the world. Um,

Well, I think, I think, doesn't seem like we've lost it a little bit. Theoretically, everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good, you know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right?

We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that? How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? Mm-hmm. I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so the, so that's it, I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things.

Mm-hmm. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that begin availability for people, you know.

Mm-hmm. I don't, and I don't have the answers to that. Right. I do not have the answers to any of that. But I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. Mm-hmm. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um mm-hmm. And so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sfm, o m a, um mm-hmm.

Or, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company. You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

Yeah, no, definitely be nice to move that direction. Yeah, speak. Well, and speaking of creativity, you just, uh, finished a new

book, right? I did. Well, it's a cookbook and we're, tell me about it. Yes, I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle.

So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water, shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff. So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited.

It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

Oh, that's very cool. That must be such a process.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, yeah, this is my fir So much work. First cookbook. I have several prose books written. Yeah, yeah. Published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work is you have to test everything, you know?

Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage foods, sometimes you can't buy the food. You have to go find the food. Mm-hmm. And then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore.

Oh, no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it, and then they're gonna give it to their friends. And so it's almost this like, three dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun, and it's shot in.

Alaska, uh, LUMY Island, Washington, and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing a wild food camp in Alaska. Um, the Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived, and my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls a Smokey Bay chalet, and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents, and then a sauna right on the water.

So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year and we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down a whole salmon opening, oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that, yeah, sounds fun. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Alaska's ridiculous.

It's like a different place in time. It's, and yeah. And ho and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life. It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance and it, it's, mm, it's phenomenal. And then Lumy Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Cool. When's that? Uh, that is in July. Lemme pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And let's see, Lemy Island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I, I have some, some different ones. I have the Urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know, what, what, what other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, yeah, I'm trying to figure out, like, could see that, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally phy physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

Mm-hmm. And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon, where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain.

And then the sun came out and we had two days of sun. And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Mm-hmm. Uh mm-hmm. So, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing.

It's, you know, California we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit. Yeah. But definitely not. Yeah.

And this is all on your website?

Yeah. So it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is Okay.

Uh, my personal website.

Cool. Yeah, those camps sound super fun. They are, they're I'd, I'd love

to go. Well, you should come. I'd like, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Yeah.

I'd be wanting to go

to Alaska forever. Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. Yeah. It's like North America 200 years ago.

I mean, there's uhhuh, fewer than a million people live there and it's three times the size of Texas. Yeah. But almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down, so, so Uhhuh, you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at Schoff Straits and.

Miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down Chico straits. Wow. Yeah. And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yeah, we can go off that. Um, cool. Well, thank you so much, Maria, for being game to record this podcast again and for being my first guest. Um, yeah, it was a great conversation. Yes. Thank you for having me. And I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food, so.

Totally. Yeah. No, I love what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, cool. All right. Thank you Iso. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks Maria. Uhhuh, bye.

Yep, good. How are you doing? Good. Yes, we did know that's heart.

Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church. I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Yeah.

Yeah. They, I haven't heard back from them. And they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that. Um, but I get it at the same time, like, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of rules.

Yes. Sitting church-like, like sitting upright in a well lit space. Yeah. It's very different. Uh, it can be a little rough when it's rough. You know, like, like if you're not feeling well, you have to get up and walk past all these people and, you know, use the bathroom. Uh, it's brightly lit. They play a little music and then they go into a question answer.

So I've had one time when the medicine was really strong, I felt kind of nauseous and it was a really difficult, not good experience. But then I've had times where you're like, the medicine's a medicine and it's beautiful and it kind of gives you what you need. Um, so, so it's a mixed experience. It's, it is, uh, it's, but it's accessible, it's affordable, it's legal.

No, no, not really. Some people do. And you know what I thought about doing, but I didn't do, cuz I'm still a guest. I'm not a member is bringing a playlist on my music. Cuz when, when it's difficult for me listening to music moves me through it. So like the hippie circle I go to here, the musician, they're all live musicians, the shaman and all are helpers.

So it's just phenomenal music and it just, oh, it's super important. So this, I thought, well, I'll bring a playlist, I'll go sit outside and listen to it if I have to. Um, but no, these people you can do it twice a month. Right. So these are people who are really, really familiar with the medicine.

No. No. And you know, and I don't really, you know, and everybody purges differently, you know, so it could be crying and, you know, it could be a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think it's sort of time to do it every two weeks. So it stays in your system. So it's kind of continually in your system working on you?

Um,

not most, but it's, it's offered. Yeah. It's totally, it's offered for that. So, yeah, so you could have it continually in your system. And then, you know, a, and it doesn't mean people aren't still purging, but these guys up front, it's sort of like your shaman, right? Who's leading your, your circle would not be purging during it, you know?

And so these guys are just kind of doing their thing. And I, you know, and some people do, but it isn't, it's not like the circles where it's encouraged and that's supposed to happen. And it's a little bit of a bummer because, um, I feel sometimes like you can't go as deep as you should because you can't, you don't feel comfortable purging.

Well,

well, well, that's what they, they do this and, and very much so. And it's based on a Brazilian man who started this church, the U D V or something, dme and, uh, and so it's got the same ceremony. It's a little bit of an offshoot of the Catholic church. Uh, but he was an alcoholic rubber tapper in a small town in Brazil and discovered ayahuasca and started, started the church down there.

And it, it was really like, uh, and everybody had to wear uniform. Um, but it was. You know, it, it's highly structured, uh, feels a little bit patriarchal, which is also kind of why I prefer my hippie structure, you know? Cause I'm like, it's such a feminine, uh, experience. But yeah, so, so it's very controlled and, uh, rigidly.

So, so, you know, that's the other part. And again, you know, yes, they need to do, like, you have to ask permission to speak, you know, for the question answer kind of thing.

Oh, yeah. No, it's, it, it's tough. It's tough and, yeah, no, it's,

I know. No, it's really like, it's really different. Uh, and it, it's not for everybody. Definitely because it's kind of like, you know, I, I don't know, like I have a friend who I go to my other circle with a lot and he's like, he always takes a lot and there's, he always needs a helper throughout it. And there's, you know, and he'll breathe really heavily and then there'll be an email that goes out, like, um, Hey, you guys we're gonna try not to breathe really heavily during ceremony.

He'll tell, you know, he's always that guy and you cannot be that guy at this place. Right. Um, and so I have to say, being a low maintenance person during these circles, I do appreciate it a little bit, uh, that, you know, and, and, and I think it's great that there's a safe space to cry really hard and throw up.

And God knows I went through that for years, but this is a little more, uh, I don't know, a little more 2.0. Uh, but yeah, so it's a different experience. It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say it's better. I wouldn't say it's worse. Uh, it's not for everybody. Um, but the medicine is still amazing. And, and that's really, you know, like I, I just, I can't see ever really wanting to go by other rules or wear the uniform.

But I, I do, I have gone there and then had these amazing, just very hard opening experiences.

Yeah. Well, and then Right, right. I, yeah. That's it. Exactly. And, and it's, it's very odd because when you think, like, to think it's like, how, how did it become legal? And they bring barrels marked, uh, Waka tea through customs. Yeah, yeah. And I know, so they took it to Supreme. To the Supreme Court Yeah. And won.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right. But we That's just like that, right? Yeah.

Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. It's, it's very, yeah. It's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping and Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community. And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking IOSCO on a regular basis.

So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with foraging. Yeah.

Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was fun. We'll see how Yes, I know. Well, let's see how we do. We'll see. How do this.

Um, sure, yeah. I live in Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and God, I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden. And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef. And, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years where, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman.

I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA and creative writing. And I eventually made my way to the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays.

And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco. And the food, of course. Uh, so I just, and I did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in, in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, Uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage.

Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away. It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and mins, uh, or not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska, in the bush, and for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for Department of Fishing game, they wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the Yik fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up. And Angie's standing outside the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys have this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dousing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, no, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and n e k a, um, I dunno if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep, visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around, eat them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food. And what they did was subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have portini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earth's hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land, they fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Well, I think people inherently crave it. You know, I mean, and I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress. It increases your dopamine and serotonin.

Like, like we need it. We crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's overextended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or, you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda stuff.

Right? Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well, what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, I, I, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning or the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own subject, but, well, yeah.

Air quotes, no. Yeah, no, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on in trouble. Right, right. We're not gonna, you know. Well, but I was like, okay, this, these are invasive blackberries, oh, sorry. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries. Right. Because those are just gonna get, spread by birds, become more invasive.

Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass. Oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know? Yeah. Like it, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose. But, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what.

And those who don't follow rules that seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

I am here. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm here. I'm just giving a pause. Just pausing. Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. It is, uh, extremely thin, but it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Sebastian Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds, and we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and.

Just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid. And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here.

So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it. Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to? One state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit.

It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland? Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, was saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up? And not only, not mess it up, be, but be a regenerative part of that. And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweetgrass before, you know, and that is one reason I loved that book.

And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it. Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist. You know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss, and you know, it's, It's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing, right. And going to the same place year after year and observing.

Um, but it's, it, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young, I was like, science, science, what am I, what am I ever gonna use? Science? Why, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. So, so that's one of my big regrets, you know? Exactly. And I'm like, you know, I dunno, 18 year old college student.

Like, this is stupid, you know, now I'm like, oh no. Um, but yeah, and you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom professional mushroom hunters, is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a. Very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB in Oregon and his professional matsu, Taki and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the Warren Vietnam, they took this idea from Agent Orange. And after they clear cut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood for the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land. And as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Thank.

Exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat Hering outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan. That was our commercial fishery. And they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or, you know, pet food or something.

But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways. And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay?

And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point instead of. Yeah, that's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know, you're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals. Cause Yes, we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms.

I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can, picking mushrooms. And then they've got tons of mushrooms. I just give them to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like this is what I do this time of year and what a great and healthy addiction to have, you know?

Oh,

oh, exactly. And then, and then the bonus, and then you come home and you cook your portini and they're frigging delicious, you know? Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah. It is, and it's, and it's the levels of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11. And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think, I think my classroom is bad enough, right? And then online classes. But so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has gotten a little too primal here. We got, we've gotten. But, uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her Procini, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. I know. Isn't that awesome? And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

Uh, not so much over here, Marin.

Well, they get, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right? That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful.

And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women filled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some? And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you.

But God, they're beautiful and delicious and nobody wants 'em. So that's one of those other nobody wants.

Sure.

Yeah, well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland. Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was a Burning man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons.

But, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol. Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day.

So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol. And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year.

Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible. It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff.

And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your sh blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these are things the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, Apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but uh, I. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes them most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail, right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flowers blooming.

Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a microdose and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime, microdosing.

Sub perceptual,

right? I mean, that's, that's a, yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024 we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it, you can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it.

No, but that's why I'm gonna do a club is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area. Legality.

Right, right,

right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, oh, not everybody, A lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are you gonna survive through get, get through this?

And you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P ts D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it. And yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it was in a really, really bad shape and.

I offered to take him to Peru to do Ayahuasca. You know, I was like, I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was, it was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like he needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know, and get those demons out into the jungle.

Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right. Uh, which is standard practice. So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really, he very much went off kind of the deep end.

And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas. And later one of his sons, my nephew Ek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Uh, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died.

And yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where, Alcohol is totally normal. You know, all, you know, my nephew's college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out. And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. But psychedelics are illegal. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know?

But so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee. You know, he, he is like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad and, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted.

And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Everybody has these like everyday traumas, right? Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with P T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right?

And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with ptsd ts, that's great. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Um, and so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L s D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam, you know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis.

They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? And so now we're like, ok, the problem was not the drugs. Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening.

And I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, everybody. Everybody is struggling with some kind of pain. Yes. You know?

Right. And it's part, and it's part of the human experience. Yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now. You know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't. You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again.

But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges, and that's okay. You know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it. I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine, and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment.

Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful. Uh, party is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it.

I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, I, but. You know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing. Um, you know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys.

Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond Galaxy out there. And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension and that's ica I still don't understand.

Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M t, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it?

Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you gotta go. Like, if you go in, it's not your thing. I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do. I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really.

That earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition. And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life.

And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us,

right? And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know, I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this happened.

And now I'm like, You know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at mount ta and I have some fresh figs. You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older.

And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no. The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like, I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the KRA and Dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed has just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of. Give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe then, like, you can really like these other parts of yourself, right?

The, the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is this stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So, I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones, and the ones I made are way more interesting.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know, because I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit, that, you know, it's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Oh, all the time, you know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just, I feel like now. But, you know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, I, you know, I didn't st anywhere and I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts, frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know.

Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that. But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff, and he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going, I'm not even telling him I cook, you know, you know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that.

Um, and I think foraging, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, you know, any of that. Um, and, you know, but then also, as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some off the charge writing career either.

You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful, and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing. I, what I love about. Being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right? Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning.

It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable in a corporate setting, you know? Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management.

Like, not gonna happen. I do fantasize about it at times out, like, like, you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute. And I, and then I'm like, no, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. And I, and you mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits and you would have a retirement. Um, yeah, I know, I know, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are. You know, I, unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

I, I feel like, cuz if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy. You know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, and you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know, it is a crazy how much some people, like you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive. And you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you like downtown San Francisco now they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Well, I think, I think, well, no, theoretically everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good. You know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right? We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that?

How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so that, so that's it.

I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that be availability for people, you know, I, I, I don't, and I don't have the answers to that, right?

I do not have the answers to any of that, but I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um, and so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sf, M O M A, um, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company.

You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

I did well to cookbook and we're, uh, yes. I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle. So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff.

So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited. It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, this is my fir first cookbook. I have several prose books written and published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work cuz you have to test everything, you know? Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage food, sometimes you can't buy the food.

You have to go find the food and then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore. Oh no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it and then they're gonna give it to their friends.

And so it's almost this like, three-dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun. And it's shot in Alaska, uh, Lumi Island, Washington and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing, uh, wild Food camp in Alaska. Um, Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived.

And my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls the Smokey Bay chalet and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents and then a sauna right on the water. So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year.

And we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down the whole salmon, opening oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, I mean, Alaska's ridiculous. It's like a different place in time. It's, and, and, and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life.

It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance, and it, it's, it's phenomenal. And then Le Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild, and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year, and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Uh, that is in July. Let me pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And, let's see, let me, island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I ki I have some, some different ones. I have the urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know what, what. What other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, so I'm trying to figure out like, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally physic physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain and then the sun came out and we had two days of sun.

And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Uh, so, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing. It's, you know, California, we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit, but definitely not.

Yeah, so it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is, uh, my personal website.

They are, they're, well, you should come. And they're, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. It's like North America 200 years ago. I mean, there's fewer than a million people live there, and it's three times the size of Texas and, but almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down.

So, so you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at she off Straits and miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down. She off straits and Yeah.

And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yes. Thank you for having me, and I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course, with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food. So, yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, all right. Thank you Iso. Okay. Ah-huh. Bye.

Hello, Maria? Yep. Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you doing? I'm good. Good. We made

it back. Yes, we did. Okay. We're, it's a heartbreaker.

We're recording as we speak. I'm looking at the thing

saying it's recording. Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church.

I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you and they're comfortable with.

Um, yeah, they, I haven't heard back from them and they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that.

Um, but I get it at the same time. Like, yeah, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of

rules. 70 or 80

people Yes. Sitting church-like,

like

sitting upright in a well-lit space.

Whoa. Yeah. That's a different kind of experience.

So just so you know all that, I mean, um, I have been recording,

um Right, right. But we that's just like

that. Totally. Like, yeah. It's just kind of like we're moving into it. Yeah.

But I kind of loved some of that. Like, so maybe we'll see, and then I'll talk, I'll send it to you and see like, are you comfortable with this part being in here? And if you're saying, uh, like, not really, then

I'll cut it out. Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys

too. Totally. Yeah. I, what I think is really interesting about it, not even necessarily the, like, name of the church or any of that stuff, is just the, like the different approach to working with Ayahuasca.

It's not, I like never would've imagined that people would take it in that environment. Yeah. Um, yeah, so it's really interesting to me.

Yeah. Personally. Yeah, it's, it's very, yeah, it's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping. Um, oh, cool. Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community.

And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking ayahuasca on a regular basis. So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Wow. Um, cool. Well, let's, uh, let's start over. Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with, Hey, we'll start, let's start rewarding. No, talk about that too.

Um. So Maria, thank you, uh, once again for being on my podcast, being the first guest on my podcast. And just full disclosure for anyone listening, this is the second time we recorded, um, because the first time I forgot to hit record. Uh, so very rookie mistake. Good. It happened when I'm still a rookie.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but I appreciate you being flexible and coming

back. Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was

fun. We'll see how it, it was such a good talk. I know. Yeah, I know. It was so, uh, so disappointing.

Well, we'll see how we do. We'll see how this

time Yeah, we'll see how we do this time. Yeah.

We'll cover the same ground in different ways maybe. Yeah. Um, yeah, so can you just, uh, kind of start by telling me a bit about yourself?

Um, sure, yeah. I live in what you're up to. Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and yet I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden.

And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef in, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years. Were, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman. I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA in creative writing.

And I eventually made my way. To the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays. And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco.

And the food of course. Uh, so I just, and it did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage. Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away.

It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and miners, uh, are not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska in the bush. And for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for to fish and game, they wanted to wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the UIC fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up and Angie's standing outside in the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys had this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dowing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, ah, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and N e k a, um, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around eating them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food and what they did with subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have porcini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earths hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land. They fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do it almost, it almost seems like sometimes that we, what am I trying to say? Like that, that we, at the level we're at, like the, the number of people or the way we organize our society, that it's hard for us to get back there.

Right? I mean, like you hear about the people like you were talking about up in Alaska. Um, and like their focus has always been like on that river, being sustainable on that river cuz that's what they need to do. And we've just like totally lost touch with that in a way that, um, yeah. I wonder if we can get back to it.

I hope

so. Well, yeah. I think people inherently crave it. Yeah, I think so too. And I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress.

It increases your dopamine and serotonin. Like, like we need it, we crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's over-extended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda

stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

We used to like catch crawfish in the like little ponds near me and stuff. I remember that. Right. Playing with frogs

and stuff. Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning of the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own

subject, but did, like, we didn't eat anything.

Is that in quotes? Well, yeah. Had air

quotes. Yeah. No, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on, I've done those walks. Right, right. We're gonna Well, but I was like this, these

are invasive. Oh wait, I lost it here. Wait, I lost you for some, oh, sorry. Can you hear me? Oh wait,

I can hear you now. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries.

Right. Because those are just gonna get spread by birds, become more invasive. Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know, that's a good,

yeah. Like, feel like that's

a good line to draw, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose.

But, but, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what. And those who don't follow rules, it seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, it's very true. Um, Did I lose you today

I'm here.

Oh, you're here? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm here. I'm just giving up, just

pausing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was a good pause. Yeah. Um, yeah, totally. I mean, I think, yeah, I think we're on the same page about that kind of stuff. Like it feels like there is a lot of minors lat in Golden Gate Park and the, and I think I have the same approach that you have, right?

Like I never have thought or try to push people to the idea that. You should go out into nature to pick everything to survive. Right? Like it's just like, it's just like, basically, basically like, it's very, very hard to do around here anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. Yeah. You'd be very thin.

Extremely thin. But it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Saasta Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds. And we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and we're just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid.

And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. Mm-hmm. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here. So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it.

Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to one state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Mm-hmm. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit. It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland.

Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, it's a complicated issue. But yeah, I mean it's, I was just reading, so this article, the woman who teaches our seaweed classes actually just sent me this article that she was in. She just like, wanted me to look at it cuz they mentioned us.

Um, and you know, it was about all of the foraging pressure in, in, uh, salt Point, basically. Mm-hmm. And it's like a real thing, right? Because a lot of people are getting interested in foraging, which is great. Um, But the only place they can go in the entire state is this one teeny little park. Like of course there's gonna be pressure there, you know, but like you're saying, it's just like, it's very artificial

pressure.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there, and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, is saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind.

You know? That's their argument

really. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. They're like, human beings go into the forest and spread

disease. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up and not only not mess it up mm-hmm. Be, but be a regenerative part of that.

And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweet grasp before, you know? Mm-hmm. And that is one reason I loved that book. And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it.

Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah, no, that book, yeah, we were talking about it last time. Um, yeah, that book had quite an effect on me. I really, I thought it was really amazing, just like very beautiful about, like, it's kinda like when you were talking before about, um, the, uh, the indigenous folks you lived near up in Alaska, just like that, just to have that level of connection with nature and like that, like, like that depth of relationship, you know?

Like I think I, and I think both of us, like we have, we have a lot more knowledge than a lot of people about this stuff, but like, me personally, like I didn't grow up with it. Like, I didn't go out with my grandparents doing this stuff. Um, so it's all like, super new to me. And, and like the excitement and the connection is, is, and the learning about it is something that really inspires me, and that's like what I try to communicate to other people too.

Um, but just to have that like inter like intergenerational f like familiarity, um, and relationship is just like, yeah, it's very beautiful. Yeah. I was very jealous.

Yeah. You know? Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist, you know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss and, you know, it's, it, it's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing Right.

And going to the same place year after year and observing. Um, but it's. It, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young I was like, science sci, what am I, when am I ever gonna use science? What, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. Mm-hmm.

So that's one of my big regrets. Yeah. You

know, science is the way the

world works. Exactly. You know, I dunno, an 18 year old college student, I'm like, this is stupid. Yeah. You know? Now I'm like, oh no. Yeah. Um, but yeah. And you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom, professional mushroom hunters is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB been Oregon and his professional matsutake and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the war in Vietnam, they took this idea from Asian orange. And after they clearcut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood. For the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. Mm-hmm. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land and as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Very well said. Thank you. Very well said. Thank you. Yeah, no, I really like that. No, I mean, I think that's the thing, right? It's like, I think that that's like, that's what I've always focused on. It's kinda like my mission in a lot of ways, like with my dinners or with the walks we do, is, is to help people get a connection with nature, right?

Because like when you have a connection with nature, you're going to protect it. And whether that's like you're a fisherman or a mushroom forager, or you're just kinda like a weekend warrior. Like you hear about this stuff happening, you hear about the clear cuts at your like favorite mushroom spot and like you're gonna fight to stop it.

But if you just go on, like you've, you just kind of like look at it like through glass. Like you don't have that same like emotional

connection. Right, exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat haring outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan.

That was our commercial fishery and they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or you know, pet food or something. But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways.

And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay? And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather. Eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point

instead of That's what they were hinting at in that article a little

bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know? You're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals.

Yeah. No, that's because we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms. I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can picking mushrooms, and then they've got tons of mushrooms.

They just give 'em to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like mm-hmm. It's like this is what I do this time of year, and what a great and healthy addiction to have. You know?

Yeah. It's an amazing thing. I mean, it really, everyone should do it. It's just really so pleasant.

Love being in the woods. It's just like being in the woods and it's like be, it's like a hike with purpose. Oh, exactly.

You know, bonus. And then you come home and you cook your portini, and I know it's delicious. That's the thing,

you know? And it's, that's just a bonus. Yeah. Too. Like, even if you don't find anything, it's like the best day that I had all month.

Yeah. And then if I find something, it's like, oh, this is like a, a cool little fun thing I also get to do to remember this amazing experience I had today. Yeah. It's just such, it's just such a nice thing to do with your time. It is. It really is. And it's some levels

of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11.

And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think everyone does a classroom is bad enough. Right. And then online classes, but, so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has got a little too primal here. We got, we got. But uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her pro, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. Aw, that's very sweet. I know. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

That's what most people do anyway. You know,

like, eh, not so much over here, Marin. We we'll be,

we're a little stingy with there. Well,

they, with their free, well, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right.

That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful. And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women pulled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some?

And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you. But God, they're beautiful and delicious. Yeah. I've been there and nobody wants 'em, so Yeah. That's one of those other, like nobody wants.

Totally. Yeah. Um, Let's change directions a little bit. Sure. And, uh, talk about the drink you're making that I, that I'm, I'm very obsessed with and I wanna, I wanna try soon.

Well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland.

Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was at Burning Man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons, but, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol.

Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day. So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol.

And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year. Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible.

It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff. And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs. Because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these, these are things I, the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but. And psilocybin. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes the most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail. Right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. Mm-hmm. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flower's blooming.

Mm-hmm. Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a micro doser and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime microdosing.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I had a really great experience with Microdosing. Um, I started doing it during Covid, uh, just, you know, I was like a little anxious, a little depressed, a little like isolated, you know, just like a lot of us were. Um, and I started microdosing and like I started playing the guitar. I started drawing more, like, like spending a lot more time, like being like, just like focusing on creative pursuits.

Um, and I found that, that even like, that stayed on even after I stopped. Um, I think it's really, it's like, I think it's like deceptively effective, um, you know, cuz you think like you're supposed to take like a sub, like a, um, I'm losing the word sub perceptual, like sub perceptual dose, right? So like by definition you're not supposed to feel it.

And so people think like, oh, that's not doing anything. But I think it's really effective. Yeah. And I started doing, I started a little business teaching people how to microdose, um, Just to, because I wanted to share it with people. I was like, whoa, this is a crazy, this is amazing. Um, you should really try this.

But yeah, I mean, that's why I was so excited about this drink. It's such a good idea, right? I mean, that's, that's, you know, it's such a good

idea. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024, we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it. You can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it. Can't sell it yet. No. But that's why I'm gonna do a club, is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area.

Legality.

That is, that is very Well, I was just thinking, I wasn't gonna say anything, but like, I mean, but that's what I did for the underground market. Like, everyone was like a member. And this is definitely like in air quotes, right? Right. And I was like, oh yeah, it's fine. We're, it's a me, it's a member only club.

And like, as soon as like any bureaucrat looked into it, they're like, that is not, you can't, like, you can't do that. Right, right. Like, you can't create a club for a specific, like to specifically avoid a law, you know? And I was like, I was like, what? You know, I thought it's fine.

Right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, or not everybody, a lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are we gonna survive through get, get through this?

And, you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P T S D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it and, mm-hmm. Yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it, it was in a really, really bad shape.

And I offered to take him to Peru to do ayahuasca. You know, I was like, mm-hmm. I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was big. It was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like mm-hmm.

He needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know? Mm-hmm. And get those demons out into the jungle. Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right, wow. Uh, which is standard practice.

So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really mu he very much went off kind of the deep end. And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas.

And later one of his sons, my nephew Quek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Um, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died and Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where alcohol is totally normal, you know, all, you know, my nephew's, college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out.

And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. Yeah. But psychedelics are illegal. Yeah. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know? But, so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee, you know?

Mm-hmm. He's like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad. And, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted. And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Uh, everybody has these like everyday traumas, right?

Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with ptsd, T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right? And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with pt, s d, that's great.

Mm-hmm. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Mm-hmm. And so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of a, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L S D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam.

You know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis. They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so now we're like, okay, the problem was not the drugs.

Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening, and I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, this is something I mentioned last time too. Um, but yeah, I think it's like, I think for me, I mean, even with my, you know, my career has been in, has been about connecting with nature in a lot of ways, right? Um, like foraging cook with forage ingredients. But recently, like my experience Yeah.

With, with Ayahuasca has really, it's really, it's changed my relationship to nature in a way that I'm still figuring out. You know? Like it really does connect you in a way that is so much deeper, right? Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I lo I love that this stuff's getting legalized, you know? I mean, I think I. I think that there are so many people, just like you're talking about, I mean, that is like a super sad story.

Like, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, and like I think there's so many people in these situations that are like struggling with some kind of pain. And Oh, everybody, society,

everybody is struggling with some kinda pain. I'm into it.

Yes. Yeah. You know, but like this kind of deep, yeah, this deep, deep stuff. I'm like, yeah.

Like there's just no answer. You know? No one really has an answer except to like, to sedate you. Um. Right. And it's, and the stuff isn't an experience

actually. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now, you know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't.

You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again. But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges and that's okay, you know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it.

I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment. Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful.

Uh, poverty is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, yeah, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it. I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, but, you know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing.

Um mm-hmm. You know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys. Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond galaxy out there.

And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension, and that's ica. I still don't understand. Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M T, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit.

Uhhuh. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it? Mm-hmm. Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you, you gotta go. Like, if you go and it's not your thing, I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do.

I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really that earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition.

And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life. And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No, I mean it's appreciating, appreciating the place we live and, and what you have. Right. Gratitude

and awe. Right. And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know what I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this hap And now I'm like, you know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at Mount Tam and I have some fresh figs.

You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but, you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. Mm-hmm. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older. And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no.

The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like. I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the crack of dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed is just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe, then like you can really.

Like these other parts of yourself, right? The the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is, the stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones. And the ones I made are way more interesting. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Anything you make yourself with your hands is like, just such a nice object to have. It's always like my favorite, my favorite things.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know? Cuz I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit that, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and on that point, like the, like doing things that you're not necessarily an expert at. Like it's something that I'm curious about you, cuz it's something that I struggle with myself is like, kind of not, not feeling like I'm necessarily the master of anything, right?

Like, I'm kind of like a jack of all trades. Like I'm not really a chef. Like I'm not really a businessman. Um, like I'm not a botanist by any means. Like, I don't know every plant in the forest. Even close to it. Um, I'm, I'm just interested in a lot of different things, you know, and like, and so it's, it's, it kind of makes me uncomfortable sometimes.

I'm like, what am I, like, what's my thing? What's my, like, one thing I'm really good at? And it, and it seems like with you too, I mean, you just do so many things and it seems like you do so many things really, really well. But like, I wonder if you ever struggle with that kind of, that discomfort.

Oh, all the time.

You know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living, cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just uhhuh Yeah. I'd be like,

I could never use chef for myself so uncomfortable. But, you

know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, uh Yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, oh, yeah.

You know, I didn't st anywhere. And I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts. Frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know. Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that.

But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff. And he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going. I'm not even telling him I cook, you know? You know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that. Um, and I think for Stae, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, low stage video of that.

Yeah. Um, and you know, but then also as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some offthe charge writing career either. You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing I, what I love about being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right?

Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning. It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable. Yeah, in a corporate setting, you know, it's very true.

Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management. Like, not gonna happen. Yeah. I do fantasize about it at times Out like, like you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute and I, and then I'm like, No, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. But also like there's something, yeah, I mean, cuz I fantasize about it too, honestly, like getting a job and just the like, how relaxing it would be just to have like one thing to do. Yeah. And I

like mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits, very specific tasks. Yeah. And you would have a retirement.

Totally. Um, takes all kinds Yeah, I know. Takes

all time. I know. Yeah, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are, you know? I, yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

Mm-hmm. I, I feel like, because if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy, you know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, yeah. And you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know? It is a crazy how much some people are like, you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. Mm-hmm. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive, and you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you get like downtown San Francisco now, they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it is a, it's a confusing place. It's a con, it's a confusing time.

There's like more mo it's like Barry has like more money than God and like, you know, more homeless people than I've ever seen. It's really sad. But yeah, no, I mean, I think, yeah, I think other societies probably do it a little bit better. You know, they help support kind of creative endeavors and I mean, it's kinda like the patronage system, right?

Like even back in history, it's like rich people would support artists because they believed art was something positive to exist in the world. Um,

Well, I think, I think, doesn't seem like we've lost it a little bit. Theoretically, everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good, you know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right?

We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that? How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? Mm-hmm. I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so the, so that's it, I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things.

Mm-hmm. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that begin availability for people, you know.

Mm-hmm. I don't, and I don't have the answers to that. Right. I do not have the answers to any of that. But I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. Mm-hmm. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um mm-hmm. And so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sfm, o m a, um mm-hmm.

Or, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company. You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

Yeah, no, definitely be nice to move that direction. Yeah, speak. Well, and speaking of creativity, you just, uh, finished a new

book, right? I did. Well, it's a cookbook and we're, tell me about it. Yes, I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle.

So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water, shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff. So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited.

It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

Oh, that's very cool. That must be such a process.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, yeah, this is my fir So much work. First cookbook. I have several prose books written. Yeah, yeah. Published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work is you have to test everything, you know?

Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage foods, sometimes you can't buy the food. You have to go find the food. Mm-hmm. And then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore.

Oh, no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it, and then they're gonna give it to their friends. And so it's almost this like, three dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun, and it's shot in.

Alaska, uh, LUMY Island, Washington, and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing a wild food camp in Alaska. Um, the Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived, and my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls a Smokey Bay chalet, and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents, and then a sauna right on the water.

So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year and we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down a whole salmon opening, oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that, yeah, sounds fun. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Alaska's ridiculous.

It's like a different place in time. It's, and yeah. And ho and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life. It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance and it, it's, mm, it's phenomenal. And then Lumy Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Cool. When's that? Uh, that is in July. Lemme pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And let's see, Lemy Island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I, I have some, some different ones. I have the Urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know, what, what, what other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, yeah, I'm trying to figure out, like, could see that, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally phy physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

Mm-hmm. And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon, where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain.

And then the sun came out and we had two days of sun. And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Mm-hmm. Uh mm-hmm. So, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing.

It's, you know, California we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit. Yeah. But definitely not. Yeah.

And this is all on your website?

Yeah. So it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is Okay.

Uh, my personal website.

Cool. Yeah, those camps sound super fun. They are, they're I'd, I'd love

to go. Well, you should come. I'd like, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Yeah.

I'd be wanting to go

to Alaska forever. Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. Yeah. It's like North America 200 years ago.

I mean, there's uhhuh, fewer than a million people live there and it's three times the size of Texas. Yeah. But almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down, so, so Uhhuh, you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at Schoff Straits and.

Miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down Chico straits. Wow. Yeah. And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yeah, we can go off that. Um, cool. Well, thank you so much, Maria, for being game to record this podcast again and for being my first guest. Um, yeah, it was a great conversation. Yes. Thank you for having me. And I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food, so.

Totally. Yeah. No, I love what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, cool. All right. Thank you Iso. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks Maria. Uhhuh, bye.

Yep, good. How are you doing? Good. Yes, we did know that's heart.

Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church. I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Yeah.

Yeah. They, I haven't heard back from them. And they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that. Um, but I get it at the same time, like, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of rules.

Yes. Sitting church-like, like sitting upright in a well lit space. Yeah. It's very different. Uh, it can be a little rough when it's rough. You know, like, like if you're not feeling well, you have to get up and walk past all these people and, you know, use the bathroom. Uh, it's brightly lit. They play a little music and then they go into a question answer.

So I've had one time when the medicine was really strong, I felt kind of nauseous and it was a really difficult, not good experience. But then I've had times where you're like, the medicine's a medicine and it's beautiful and it kind of gives you what you need. Um, so, so it's a mixed experience. It's, it is, uh, it's, but it's accessible, it's affordable, it's legal.

No, no, not really. Some people do. And you know what I thought about doing, but I didn't do, cuz I'm still a guest. I'm not a member is bringing a playlist on my music. Cuz when, when it's difficult for me listening to music moves me through it. So like the hippie circle I go to here, the musician, they're all live musicians, the shaman and all are helpers.

So it's just phenomenal music and it just, oh, it's super important. So this, I thought, well, I'll bring a playlist, I'll go sit outside and listen to it if I have to. Um, but no, these people you can do it twice a month. Right. So these are people who are really, really familiar with the medicine.

No. No. And you know, and I don't really, you know, and everybody purges differently, you know, so it could be crying and, you know, it could be a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think it's sort of time to do it every two weeks. So it stays in your system. So it's kind of continually in your system working on you?

Um,

not most, but it's, it's offered. Yeah. It's totally, it's offered for that. So, yeah, so you could have it continually in your system. And then, you know, a, and it doesn't mean people aren't still purging, but these guys up front, it's sort of like your shaman, right? Who's leading your, your circle would not be purging during it, you know?

And so these guys are just kind of doing their thing. And I, you know, and some people do, but it isn't, it's not like the circles where it's encouraged and that's supposed to happen. And it's a little bit of a bummer because, um, I feel sometimes like you can't go as deep as you should because you can't, you don't feel comfortable purging.

Well,

well, well, that's what they, they do this and, and very much so. And it's based on a Brazilian man who started this church, the U D V or something, dme and, uh, and so it's got the same ceremony. It's a little bit of an offshoot of the Catholic church. Uh, but he was an alcoholic rubber tapper in a small town in Brazil and discovered ayahuasca and started, started the church down there.

And it, it was really like, uh, and everybody had to wear uniform. Um, but it was. You know, it, it's highly structured, uh, feels a little bit patriarchal, which is also kind of why I prefer my hippie structure, you know? Cause I'm like, it's such a feminine, uh, experience. But yeah, so, so it's very controlled and, uh, rigidly.

So, so, you know, that's the other part. And again, you know, yes, they need to do, like, you have to ask permission to speak, you know, for the question answer kind of thing.

Oh, yeah. No, it's, it, it's tough. It's tough and, yeah, no, it's,

I know. No, it's really like, it's really different. Uh, and it, it's not for everybody. Definitely because it's kind of like, you know, I, I don't know, like I have a friend who I go to my other circle with a lot and he's like, he always takes a lot and there's, he always needs a helper throughout it. And there's, you know, and he'll breathe really heavily and then there'll be an email that goes out, like, um, Hey, you guys we're gonna try not to breathe really heavily during ceremony.

He'll tell, you know, he's always that guy and you cannot be that guy at this place. Right. Um, and so I have to say, being a low maintenance person during these circles, I do appreciate it a little bit, uh, that, you know, and, and, and I think it's great that there's a safe space to cry really hard and throw up.

And God knows I went through that for years, but this is a little more, uh, I don't know, a little more 2.0. Uh, but yeah, so it's a different experience. It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say it's better. I wouldn't say it's worse. Uh, it's not for everybody. Um, but the medicine is still amazing. And, and that's really, you know, like I, I just, I can't see ever really wanting to go by other rules or wear the uniform.

But I, I do, I have gone there and then had these amazing, just very hard opening experiences.

Yeah. Well, and then Right, right. I, yeah. That's it. Exactly. And, and it's, it's very odd because when you think, like, to think it's like, how, how did it become legal? And they bring barrels marked, uh, Waka tea through customs. Yeah, yeah. And I know, so they took it to Supreme. To the Supreme Court Yeah. And won.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right. But we That's just like that, right? Yeah.

Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. It's, it's very, yeah. It's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping and Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community. And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking IOSCO on a regular basis.

So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with foraging. Yeah.

Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was fun. We'll see how Yes, I know. Well, let's see how we do. We'll see. How do this.

Um, sure, yeah. I live in Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and God, I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden. And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef. And, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years where, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman.

I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA and creative writing. And I eventually made my way to the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays.

And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco. And the food, of course. Uh, so I just, and I did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in, in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, Uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage.

Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away. It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and mins, uh, or not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska, in the bush, and for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for Department of Fishing game, they wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the Yik fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up. And Angie's standing outside the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys have this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dousing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, no, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and n e k a, um, I dunno if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep, visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around, eat them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food. And what they did was subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have portini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earth's hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land, they fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Well, I think people inherently crave it. You know, I mean, and I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress. It increases your dopamine and serotonin.

Like, like we need it. We crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's overextended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or, you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda stuff.

Right? Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well, what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, I, I, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning or the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own subject, but, well, yeah.

Air quotes, no. Yeah, no, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on in trouble. Right, right. We're not gonna, you know. Well, but I was like, okay, this, these are invasive blackberries, oh, sorry. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries. Right. Because those are just gonna get, spread by birds, become more invasive.

Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass. Oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know? Yeah. Like it, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose. But, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what.

And those who don't follow rules that seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

I am here. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm here. I'm just giving a pause. Just pausing. Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. It is, uh, extremely thin, but it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Sebastian Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds, and we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and.

Just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid. And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here.

So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it. Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to? One state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit.

It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland? Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, was saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up? And not only, not mess it up, be, but be a regenerative part of that. And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweetgrass before, you know, and that is one reason I loved that book.

And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it. Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist. You know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss, and you know, it's, It's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing, right. And going to the same place year after year and observing.

Um, but it's, it, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young, I was like, science, science, what am I, what am I ever gonna use? Science? Why, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. So, so that's one of my big regrets, you know? Exactly. And I'm like, you know, I dunno, 18 year old college student.

Like, this is stupid, you know, now I'm like, oh no. Um, but yeah, and you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom professional mushroom hunters, is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a. Very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB in Oregon and his professional matsu, Taki and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the Warren Vietnam, they took this idea from Agent Orange. And after they clear cut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood for the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land. And as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Thank.

Exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat Hering outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan. That was our commercial fishery. And they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or, you know, pet food or something.

But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways. And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay?

And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point instead of. Yeah, that's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know, you're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals. Cause Yes, we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms.

I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can, picking mushrooms. And then they've got tons of mushrooms. I just give them to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like this is what I do this time of year and what a great and healthy addiction to have, you know?

Oh,

oh, exactly. And then, and then the bonus, and then you come home and you cook your portini and they're frigging delicious, you know? Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah. It is, and it's, and it's the levels of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11. And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think, I think my classroom is bad enough, right? And then online classes. But so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has gotten a little too primal here. We got, we've gotten. But, uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her Procini, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. I know. Isn't that awesome? And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

Uh, not so much over here, Marin.

Well, they get, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right? That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful.

And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women filled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some? And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you.

But God, they're beautiful and delicious and nobody wants 'em. So that's one of those other nobody wants.

Sure.

Yeah, well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland. Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was a Burning man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons.

But, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol. Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day.

So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol. And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year.

Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible. It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff.

And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your sh blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these are things the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, Apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but uh, I. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes them most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail, right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flowers blooming.

Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a microdose and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime, microdosing.

Sub perceptual,

right? I mean, that's, that's a, yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024 we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it, you can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it.

No, but that's why I'm gonna do a club is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area. Legality.

Right, right,

right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, oh, not everybody, A lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are you gonna survive through get, get through this?

And you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P ts D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it. And yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it was in a really, really bad shape and.

I offered to take him to Peru to do Ayahuasca. You know, I was like, I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was, it was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like he needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know, and get those demons out into the jungle.

Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right. Uh, which is standard practice. So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really, he very much went off kind of the deep end.

And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas. And later one of his sons, my nephew Ek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Uh, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died.

And yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where, Alcohol is totally normal. You know, all, you know, my nephew's college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out. And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. But psychedelics are illegal. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know?

But so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee. You know, he, he is like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad and, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted.

And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Everybody has these like everyday traumas, right? Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with P T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right?

And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with ptsd ts, that's great. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Um, and so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L s D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam, you know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis.

They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? And so now we're like, ok, the problem was not the drugs. Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening.

And I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, everybody. Everybody is struggling with some kind of pain. Yes. You know?

Right. And it's part, and it's part of the human experience. Yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now. You know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't. You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again.

But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges, and that's okay. You know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it. I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine, and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment.

Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful. Uh, party is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it.

I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, I, but. You know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing. Um, you know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys.

Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond Galaxy out there. And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension and that's ica I still don't understand.

Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M t, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it?

Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you gotta go. Like, if you go in, it's not your thing. I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do. I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really.

That earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition. And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life.

And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us,

right? And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know, I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this happened.

And now I'm like, You know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at mount ta and I have some fresh figs. You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older.

And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no. The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like, I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the KRA and Dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed has just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of. Give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe then, like, you can really like these other parts of yourself, right?

The, the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is this stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So, I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones, and the ones I made are way more interesting.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know, because I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit, that, you know, it's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Oh, all the time, you know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just, I feel like now. But, you know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, I, you know, I didn't st anywhere and I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts, frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know.

Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that. But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff, and he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going, I'm not even telling him I cook, you know, you know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that.

Um, and I think foraging, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, you know, any of that. Um, and, you know, but then also, as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some off the charge writing career either.

You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful, and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing. I, what I love about. Being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right? Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning.

It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable in a corporate setting, you know? Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management.

Like, not gonna happen. I do fantasize about it at times out, like, like, you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute. And I, and then I'm like, no, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. And I, and you mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits and you would have a retirement. Um, yeah, I know, I know, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are. You know, I, unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

I, I feel like, cuz if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy. You know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, and you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know, it is a crazy how much some people, like you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive. And you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you like downtown San Francisco now they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Well, I think, I think, well, no, theoretically everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good. You know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right? We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that?

How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so that, so that's it.

I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that be availability for people, you know, I, I, I don't, and I don't have the answers to that, right?

I do not have the answers to any of that, but I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um, and so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sf, M O M A, um, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company.

You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

I did well to cookbook and we're, uh, yes. I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle. So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff.

So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited. It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, this is my fir first cookbook. I have several prose books written and published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work cuz you have to test everything, you know? Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage food, sometimes you can't buy the food.

You have to go find the food and then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore. Oh no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it and then they're gonna give it to their friends.

And so it's almost this like, three-dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun. And it's shot in Alaska, uh, Lumi Island, Washington and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing, uh, wild Food camp in Alaska. Um, Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived.

And my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls the Smokey Bay chalet and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents and then a sauna right on the water. So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year.

And we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down the whole salmon, opening oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, I mean, Alaska's ridiculous. It's like a different place in time. It's, and, and, and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life.

It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance, and it, it's, it's phenomenal. And then Le Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild, and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year, and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Uh, that is in July. Let me pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And, let's see, let me, island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I ki I have some, some different ones. I have the urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know what, what. What other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, so I'm trying to figure out like, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally physic physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain and then the sun came out and we had two days of sun.

And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Uh, so, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing. It's, you know, California, we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit, but definitely not.

Yeah, so it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is, uh, my personal website.

They are, they're, well, you should come. And they're, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. It's like North America 200 years ago. I mean, there's fewer than a million people live there, and it's three times the size of Texas and, but almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down.

So, so you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at she off Straits and miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down. She off straits and Yeah.

And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world 📍 used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Hello, Maria? Yep. Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you doing? I'm good. Good. We made

it back. Yes, we did. Okay. We're, it's a heartbreaker.

We're recording as we speak. I'm looking at the thing

saying it's recording. Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church.

I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you and they're comfortable with.

Um, yeah, they, I haven't heard back from them and they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that.

Um, but I get it at the same time. Like, yeah, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of

rules. 70 or 80

people Yes. Sitting church-like,

like

sitting upright in a well-lit space.

Whoa. Yeah. That's a different kind of experience.

It's very different. What's that like?

Uh, it can be a little rough when it's rough, you know? Yeah. Like, like if you're not feeling well, you have to get up and walk past all these people and you know, it's the bathroom, uh, it's brightly lit. They play a little music and then they go into a question answer. So I've had one time when the medicine was really strong, I felt kind of nauseous and it was a really difficult, not good experience.

Mm-hmm. But then I've had times where you're like, the medicine's a medicine and it's beautiful and it kind of gives you what you need. Um, so, so it's a mixed experience. It's, it is, uh, it's, but it's accessible, it's affordable, it's legal.

Huh. That's really inter like

so are peop a lot of people throwing

up? No. No, not really. Some people do. And you know what I thought about doing, but I didn't do it cuz I'm still a guest. I'm not a member is bringing a playlist on my music cuz when, when it's difficult for me listening to music moves me through it. Mm-hmm. So like the hippie circle I go to here, the musician, they're all live musicians.

This shaman and all are helpers. So it's just phenomenal music and it just, yeah, it's important. Oh, it's super important. So this, I thought, well, I'll bring a playlist. I'll go sit outside and listen to it if I have to. Um, but no, these people you can do it twice a month. Right. So these are people who are really, really familiar with the medicine.

Uhhuh. Yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess in my experience and just from talking to people who are even much more experienced, that Yeah. Throwing up doesn't necessarily have to do with experience level, you know, like it's just often just

part of it. No, and you know, and I don't really, you know, and everybody purges differently.

Yeah. You know, so it could be crying and, you know, it could be a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think it's sort of time to do it every two weeks so it stays in your system. So it's kind of continually in your system working on you.

Um, so most people are doing it every two weeks, just indefinitely.

Not most, but

it's, it's offered members. Yeah. Yeah. It's totally, it's offered for that. So, yeah. So you could have it continually in your system and then, you know, a and it doesn't mean people aren't still purging, but these guys up front, it's sort of like you're shaman, right? Who's leading your, your circle would not be purging during it.

Yeah, yeah. You know? Huh. And so these guys are just kind of doing their thing, and I, you know, and some people do, but it isn't, it's not like the circles where it's encouraged and that's supposed to happen. And it's a little bit of a bummer because, um, I feel sometimes like you can't go as deep as you should because you can't, you don't feel comfortable purging.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like.

That, yeah. Is often a large part of the experience and not that it even always happens, but yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I, it feels like, it feels like, for me, in my experience, like something that feels super important with Ayahuasca is like, have having someone kind of like manage the, like, manage the space, you know, whether that's like managing the energy in the space or however you wanna look at it, like, like the music and it's like they're, they're like manipulating the experience in some way.

Like they're, they're guiding

the experience. Well, that's what they, they do this and, and very much so. And it's based on, uh, Brazilian man who started this church, the U D V or something, dme and, uh, and so it's got the same ceremony. It's a little bit of an offshoot of the Catholic church. Uh, but he was an alcoholic rubber tapper in a small town in Brazil and discovered ayahuasca and started, started the church down there.

And it, it was really like, uh, and everybody had to wear a uniform. Um, but it was. You know, it, it's highly structured. Uh, it feels a little bit patriarchal, which is also kind of why I prefer my hippie structure, you know? Cause I'm like, it's such a feminine, uh, experience. But yeah, so, so it's very controlled and, uh, rigidly.

So, so, you know, that's the other part. And again, you know, yes, they need to do, like, you have to ask permission to speak, you know, for the question answer kind of thing.

Hmm. Man, I can't imagine Yeah. Having questions and answers even. Oh yeah, no, it's tough. You know, it's tough, like tough so much about it that I like.

Yeah, no, it's into my, from my, I'm like trying to like listen to this through the lens of like, my experience. I'm like, I can't imagine

that. I know. No, it's really like, it's really different. Uh, and it, it's not for everybody. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Because it's kind of like, You know, I, I don't know. Like I have a friend who I go to my other circle with a lot and he's like, he always takes a lot and there's, he always needs a helper throughout it.

And there's, you know, and he'll breathe really heavily and then there'll be an email that goes out, like, um, Hey, you guys, we're gonna try not to breathe really heavily during ceremony, tell, you know, and he's always that guy, Uhhuh, and you cannot be that guy at this place. Right. Um, and so I have to say, being a low maintenance person during these circles, I do appreciate it a little bit.

Mm-hmm. Uh, that, you know, and, and, and I think it's great that there's a safe space to cry really hard and throw up. And God knows I went through that for years, but this is a little more, uh, I don't know, a little more 2.0. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah. So it's a different experience. It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say it's better.

I wouldn't say it's worse. Uh, it's not for everybody. Um, but the medicine is still amazing. Mm-hmm. And, and that's really, you know, like I, I just, I can't see ever really wanting to go by other rules or wear the uniform. But I, I do, I have gone there and then had these amazing, just very hard opening experiences.

Hmm. Yeah. I guess, you know, It takes all kinds. There's many different approaches to well, this

kind of work. Right, right, right. You know? Yeah. That's it. Exactly. And, and it's, it's very odd because when you think, like, to think it's like, how, how did it become legal? And they bring barrels marked, uh, Waka tea through customs.

Wow. Yeah. Yep. Interesting. I know. So they took it to Supreme. To the Supreme Court.

Wow. Yeah. And won. Very interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So just so you know all that, I mean, um, I have been recording,

um Right, right. But we that's just like

that. Totally. Like, yeah. It's just kind of like we're moving into it. Yeah.

But I kind of loved some of that. Like, so maybe we'll see, and then I'll talk, I'll send it to you and see like, are you comfortable with this part being in here? And if you're saying, uh, like, not really, then

I'll cut it out. Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys

too. Totally. Yeah. I, what I think is really interesting about it, not even necessarily the, like, name of the church or any of that stuff, is just the, like the different approach to working with Ayahuasca.

It's not, I like never would've imagined that people would take it in that environment. Yeah. Um, yeah, so it's really interesting to me.

Yeah. Personally. Yeah, it's, it's very, yeah, it's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping. Um, oh, cool. Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community.

And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking ayahuasca on a regular basis. So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Wow. Um, cool. Well, let's, uh, let's start over. Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with, Hey, we'll start, let's start rewarding. No, talk about that too.

Um. So Maria, thank you, uh, once again for being on my podcast, being the first guest on my podcast. And just full disclosure for anyone listening, this is the second time we recorded, um, because the first time I forgot to hit record. Uh, so very rookie mistake. Good. It happened when I'm still a rookie.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but I appreciate you being flexible and coming

back. Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was

fun. We'll see how it, it was such a good talk. I know. Yeah, I know. It was so, uh, so disappointing.

Well, we'll see how we do. We'll see how this

time Yeah, we'll see how we do this time. Yeah.

We'll cover the same ground in different ways maybe. Yeah. Um, yeah, so can you just, uh, kind of start by telling me a bit about yourself?

Um, sure, yeah. I live in what you're up to. Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and yet I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden.

And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef in, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years. Were, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman. I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA in creative writing.

And I eventually made my way. To the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays. And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco.

And the food of course. Uh, so I just, and it did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage. Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away.

It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and miners, uh, are not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska in the bush. And for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for to fish and game, they wanted to wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the UIC fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up and Angie's standing outside in the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys had this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dowing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, ah, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and N e k a, um, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around eating them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food and what they did with subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have porcini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earths hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land. They fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do it almost, it almost seems like sometimes that we, what am I trying to say? Like that, that we, at the level we're at, like the, the number of people or the way we organize our society, that it's hard for us to get back there.

Right? I mean, like you hear about the people like you were talking about up in Alaska. Um, and like their focus has always been like on that river, being sustainable on that river cuz that's what they need to do. And we've just like totally lost touch with that in a way that, um, yeah. I wonder if we can get back to it.

I hope

so. Well, yeah. I think people inherently crave it. Yeah, I think so too. And I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress.

It increases your dopamine and serotonin. Like, like we need it, we crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's over-extended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda

stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

We used to like catch crawfish in the like little ponds near me and stuff. I remember that. Right. Playing with frogs

and stuff. Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning of the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own

subject, but did, like, we didn't eat anything.

Is that in quotes? Well, yeah. Had air

quotes. Yeah. No, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on, I've done those walks. Right, right. We're gonna Well, but I was like this, these

are invasive. Oh wait, I lost it here. Wait, I lost you for some, oh, sorry. Can you hear me? Oh wait,

I can hear you now. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries.

Right. Because those are just gonna get spread by birds, become more invasive. Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know, that's a good,

yeah. Like, feel like that's

a good line to draw, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose.

But, but, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what. And those who don't follow rules, it seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, it's very true. Um, Did I lose you today

I'm here.

Oh, you're here? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm here. I'm just giving up, just

pausing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was a good pause. Yeah. Um, yeah, totally. I mean, I think, yeah, I think we're on the same page about that kind of stuff. Like it feels like there is a lot of minors lat in Golden Gate Park and the, and I think I have the same approach that you have, right?

Like I never have thought or try to push people to the idea that. You should go out into nature to pick everything to survive. Right? Like it's just like, it's just like, basically, basically like, it's very, very hard to do around here anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. Yeah. You'd be very thin.

Extremely thin. But it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Saasta Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds. And we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and we're just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid.

And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. Mm-hmm. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here. So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it.

Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to one state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Mm-hmm. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit. It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland.

Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, it's a complicated issue. But yeah, I mean it's, I was just reading, so this article, the woman who teaches our seaweed classes actually just sent me this article that she was in. She just like, wanted me to look at it cuz they mentioned us.

Um, and you know, it was about all of the foraging pressure in, in, uh, salt Point, basically. Mm-hmm. And it's like a real thing, right? Because a lot of people are getting interested in foraging, which is great. Um, But the only place they can go in the entire state is this one teeny little park. Like of course there's gonna be pressure there, you know, but like you're saying, it's just like, it's very artificial

pressure.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there, and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, is saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind.

You know? That's their argument

really. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. They're like, human beings go into the forest and spread

disease. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up and not only not mess it up mm-hmm. Be, but be a regenerative part of that.

And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweet grasp before, you know? Mm-hmm. And that is one reason I loved that book. And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it.

Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah, no, that book, yeah, we were talking about it last time. Um, yeah, that book had quite an effect on me. I really, I thought it was really amazing, just like very beautiful about, like, it's kinda like when you were talking before about, um, the, uh, the indigenous folks you lived near up in Alaska, just like that, just to have that level of connection with nature and like that, like, like that depth of relationship, you know?

Like I think I, and I think both of us, like we have, we have a lot more knowledge than a lot of people about this stuff, but like, me personally, like I didn't grow up with it. Like, I didn't go out with my grandparents doing this stuff. Um, so it's all like, super new to me. And, and like the excitement and the connection is, is, and the learning about it is something that really inspires me, and that's like what I try to communicate to other people too.

Um, but just to have that like inter like intergenerational f like familiarity, um, and relationship is just like, yeah, it's very beautiful. Yeah. I was very jealous.

Yeah. You know? Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist, you know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss and, you know, it's, it, it's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing Right.

And going to the same place year after year and observing. Um, but it's. It, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young I was like, science sci, what am I, when am I ever gonna use science? What, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. Mm-hmm.

So that's one of my big regrets. Yeah. You

know, science is the way the

world works. Exactly. You know, I dunno, an 18 year old college student, I'm like, this is stupid. Yeah. You know? Now I'm like, oh no. Yeah. Um, but yeah. And you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom, professional mushroom hunters is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB been Oregon and his professional matsutake and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the war in Vietnam, they took this idea from Asian orange. And after they clearcut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood. For the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. Mm-hmm. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land and as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Very well said. Thank you. Very well said. Thank you. Yeah, no, I really like that. No, I mean, I think that's the thing, right? It's like, I think that that's like, that's what I've always focused on. It's kinda like my mission in a lot of ways, like with my dinners or with the walks we do, is, is to help people get a connection with nature, right?

Because like when you have a connection with nature, you're going to protect it. And whether that's like you're a fisherman or a mushroom forager, or you're just kinda like a weekend warrior. Like you hear about this stuff happening, you hear about the clear cuts at your like favorite mushroom spot and like you're gonna fight to stop it.

But if you just go on, like you've, you just kind of like look at it like through glass. Like you don't have that same like emotional

connection. Right, exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat haring outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan.

That was our commercial fishery and they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or you know, pet food or something. But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways.

And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay? And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather. Eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point

instead of That's what they were hinting at in that article a little

bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know? You're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals.

Yeah. No, that's because we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms. I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can picking mushrooms, and then they've got tons of mushrooms.

They just give 'em to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like mm-hmm. It's like this is what I do this time of year, and what a great and healthy addiction to have. You know?

Yeah. It's an amazing thing. I mean, it really, everyone should do it. It's just really so pleasant.

Love being in the woods. It's just like being in the woods and it's like be, it's like a hike with purpose. Oh, exactly.

You know, bonus. And then you come home and you cook your portini, and I know it's delicious. That's the thing,

you know? And it's, that's just a bonus. Yeah. Too. Like, even if you don't find anything, it's like the best day that I had all month.

Yeah. And then if I find something, it's like, oh, this is like a, a cool little fun thing I also get to do to remember this amazing experience I had today. Yeah. It's just such, it's just such a nice thing to do with your time. It is. It really is. And it's some levels

of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11.

And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think everyone does a classroom is bad enough. Right. And then online classes, but, so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has got a little too primal here. We got, we got. But uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her pro, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. Aw, that's very sweet. I know. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

That's what most people do anyway. You know,

like, eh, not so much over here, Marin. We we'll be,

we're a little stingy with there. Well,

they, with their free, well, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right.

That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful. And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women pulled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some?

And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you. But God, they're beautiful and delicious. Yeah. I've been there and nobody wants 'em, so Yeah. That's one of those other, like nobody wants.

Totally. Yeah. Um, Let's change directions a little bit. Sure. And, uh, talk about the drink you're making that I, that I'm, I'm very obsessed with and I wanna, I wanna try soon.

Well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland.

Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was at Burning Man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons, but, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol.

Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day. So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol.

And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year. Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible.

It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff. And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs. Because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these, these are things I, the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but. And psilocybin. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes the most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail. Right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. Mm-hmm. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flower's blooming.

Mm-hmm. Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a micro doser and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime microdosing.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I had a really great experience with Microdosing. Um, I started doing it during Covid, uh, just, you know, I was like a little anxious, a little depressed, a little like isolated, you know, just like a lot of us were. Um, and I started microdosing and like I started playing the guitar. I started drawing more, like, like spending a lot more time, like being like, just like focusing on creative pursuits.

Um, and I found that, that even like, that stayed on even after I stopped. Um, I think it's really, it's like, I think it's like deceptively effective, um, you know, cuz you think like you're supposed to take like a sub, like a, um, I'm losing the word sub perceptual, like sub perceptual dose, right? So like by definition you're not supposed to feel it.

And so people think like, oh, that's not doing anything. But I think it's really effective. Yeah. And I started doing, I started a little business teaching people how to microdose, um, Just to, because I wanted to share it with people. I was like, whoa, this is a crazy, this is amazing. Um, you should really try this.

But yeah, I mean, that's why I was so excited about this drink. It's such a good idea, right? I mean, that's, that's, you know, it's such a good

idea. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024, we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it. You can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it. Can't sell it yet. No. But that's why I'm gonna do a club, is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area.

Legality.

That is, that is very Well, I was just thinking, I wasn't gonna say anything, but like, I mean, but that's what I did for the underground market. Like, everyone was like a member. And this is definitely like in air quotes, right? Right. And I was like, oh yeah, it's fine. We're, it's a me, it's a member only club.

And like, as soon as like any bureaucrat looked into it, they're like, that is not, you can't, like, you can't do that. Right, right. Like, you can't create a club for a specific, like to specifically avoid a law, you know? And I was like, I was like, what? You know, I thought it's fine.

Right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, or not everybody, a lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are we gonna survive through get, get through this?

And, you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P T S D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it and, mm-hmm. Yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it, it was in a really, really bad shape.

And I offered to take him to Peru to do ayahuasca. You know, I was like, mm-hmm. I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was big. It was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like mm-hmm.

He needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know? Mm-hmm. And get those demons out into the jungle. Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right, wow. Uh, which is standard practice.

So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really mu he very much went off kind of the deep end. And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas.

And later one of his sons, my nephew Quek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Um, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died and Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where alcohol is totally normal, you know, all, you know, my nephew's, college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out.

And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. Yeah. But psychedelics are illegal. Yeah. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know? But, so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee, you know?

Mm-hmm. He's like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad. And, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted. And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Uh, everybody has these like everyday traumas, right?

Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with ptsd, T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right? And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with pt, s d, that's great.

Mm-hmm. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Mm-hmm. And so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of a, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L S D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam.

You know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis. They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so now we're like, okay, the problem was not the drugs.

Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening, and I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, this is something I mentioned last time too. Um, but yeah, I think it's like, I think for me, I mean, even with my, you know, my career has been in, has been about connecting with nature in a lot of ways, right? Um, like foraging cook with forage ingredients. But recently, like my experience Yeah.

With, with Ayahuasca has really, it's really, it's changed my relationship to nature in a way that I'm still figuring out. You know? Like it really does connect you in a way that is so much deeper, right? Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I lo I love that this stuff's getting legalized, you know? I mean, I think I. I think that there are so many people, just like you're talking about, I mean, that is like a super sad story.

Like, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, and like I think there's so many people in these situations that are like struggling with some kind of pain. And Oh, everybody, society,

everybody is struggling with some kinda pain. I'm into it.

Yes. Yeah. You know, but like this kind of deep, yeah, this deep, deep stuff. I'm like, yeah.

Like there's just no answer. You know? No one really has an answer except to like, to sedate you. Um. Right. And it's, and the stuff isn't an experience

actually. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now, you know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't.

You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again. But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges and that's okay, you know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it.

I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment. Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful.

Uh, poverty is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, yeah, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it. I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, but, you know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing.

Um mm-hmm. You know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys. Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond galaxy out there.

And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension, and that's ica. I still don't understand. Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M T, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit.

Uhhuh. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it? Mm-hmm. Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you, you gotta go. Like, if you go and it's not your thing, I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do.

I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really that earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition.

And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life. And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No, I mean it's appreciating, appreciating the place we live and, and what you have. Right. Gratitude

and awe. Right. And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know what I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this hap And now I'm like, you know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at Mount Tam and I have some fresh figs.

You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but, you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. Mm-hmm. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older. And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no.

The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like. I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the crack of dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed is just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe, then like you can really.

Like these other parts of yourself, right? The the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is, the stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones. And the ones I made are way more interesting. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Anything you make yourself with your hands is like, just such a nice object to have. It's always like my favorite, my favorite things.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know? Cuz I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit that, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and on that point, like the, like doing things that you're not necessarily an expert at. Like it's something that I'm curious about you, cuz it's something that I struggle with myself is like, kind of not, not feeling like I'm necessarily the master of anything, right?

Like, I'm kind of like a jack of all trades. Like I'm not really a chef. Like I'm not really a businessman. Um, like I'm not a botanist by any means. Like, I don't know every plant in the forest. Even close to it. Um, I'm, I'm just interested in a lot of different things, you know, and like, and so it's, it's, it kind of makes me uncomfortable sometimes.

I'm like, what am I, like, what's my thing? What's my, like, one thing I'm really good at? And it, and it seems like with you too, I mean, you just do so many things and it seems like you do so many things really, really well. But like, I wonder if you ever struggle with that kind of, that discomfort.

Oh, all the time.

You know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living, cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just uhhuh Yeah. I'd be like,

I could never use chef for myself so uncomfortable. But, you

know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, uh Yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, oh, yeah.

You know, I didn't st anywhere. And I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts. Frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know. Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that.

But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff. And he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going. I'm not even telling him I cook, you know? You know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that. Um, and I think for Stae, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, low stage video of that.

Yeah. Um, and you know, but then also as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some offthe charge writing career either. You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing I, what I love about being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right?

Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning. It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable. Yeah, in a corporate setting, you know, it's very true.

Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management. Like, not gonna happen. Yeah. I do fantasize about it at times Out like, like you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute and I, and then I'm like, No, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. But also like there's something, yeah, I mean, cuz I fantasize about it too, honestly, like getting a job and just the like, how relaxing it would be just to have like one thing to do. Yeah. And I

like mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits, very specific tasks. Yeah. And you would have a retirement.

Totally. Um, takes all kinds Yeah, I know. Takes

all time. I know. Yeah, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are, you know? I, yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

Mm-hmm. I, I feel like, because if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy, you know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, yeah. And you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know? It is a crazy how much some people are like, you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. Mm-hmm. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive, and you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you get like downtown San Francisco now, they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it is a, it's a confusing place. It's a con, it's a confusing time.

There's like more mo it's like Barry has like more money than God and like, you know, more homeless people than I've ever seen. It's really sad. But yeah, no, I mean, I think, yeah, I think other societies probably do it a little bit better. You know, they help support kind of creative endeavors and I mean, it's kinda like the patronage system, right?

Like even back in history, it's like rich people would support artists because they believed art was something positive to exist in the world. Um,

Well, I think, I think, doesn't seem like we've lost it a little bit. Theoretically, everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good, you know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right?

We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that? How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? Mm-hmm. I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so the, so that's it, I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things.

Mm-hmm. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that begin availability for people, you know.

Mm-hmm. I don't, and I don't have the answers to that. Right. I do not have the answers to any of that. But I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. Mm-hmm. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um mm-hmm. And so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sfm, o m a, um mm-hmm.

Or, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company. You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

Yeah, no, definitely be nice to move that direction. Yeah, speak. Well, and speaking of creativity, you just, uh, finished a new

book, right? I did. Well, it's a cookbook and we're, tell me about it. Yes, I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle.

So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water, shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff. So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited.

It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

Oh, that's very cool. That must be such a process.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, yeah, this is my fir So much work. First cookbook. I have several prose books written. Yeah, yeah. Published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work is you have to test everything, you know?

Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage foods, sometimes you can't buy the food. You have to go find the food. Mm-hmm. And then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore.

Oh, no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it, and then they're gonna give it to their friends. And so it's almost this like, three dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun, and it's shot in.

Alaska, uh, LUMY Island, Washington, and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing a wild food camp in Alaska. Um, the Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived, and my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls a Smokey Bay chalet, and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents, and then a sauna right on the water.

So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year and we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down a whole salmon opening, oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that, yeah, sounds fun. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Alaska's ridiculous.

It's like a different place in time. It's, and yeah. And ho and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life. It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance and it, it's, mm, it's phenomenal. And then Lumy Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Cool. When's that? Uh, that is in July. Lemme pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And let's see, Lemy Island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I, I have some, some different ones. I have the Urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know, what, what, what other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, yeah, I'm trying to figure out, like, could see that, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally phy physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

Mm-hmm. And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon, where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain.

And then the sun came out and we had two days of sun. And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Mm-hmm. Uh mm-hmm. So, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing.

It's, you know, California we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit. Yeah. But definitely not. Yeah.

And this is all on your website?

Yeah. So it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is Okay.

Uh, my personal website.

Cool. Yeah, those camps sound super fun. They are, they're I'd, I'd love

to go. Well, you should come. I'd like, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Yeah.

I'd be wanting to go

to Alaska forever. Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. Yeah. It's like North America 200 years ago.

I mean, there's uhhuh, fewer than a million people live there and it's three times the size of Texas. Yeah. But almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down, so, so Uhhuh, you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at Schoff Straits and.

Miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down Chico straits. Wow. Yeah. And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yeah, we can go off that. Um, cool. Well, thank you so much, Maria, for being game to record this podcast again and for being my first guest. Um, yeah, it was a great conversation. Yes. Thank you for having me. And I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food, so.

Totally. Yeah. No, I love what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, cool. All right. Thank you Iso. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks Maria. Uhhuh, bye.

Yep, good. How are you doing? Good. Yes, we did know that's heart.

Okay, good. So I just checked in with the U D V church and I haven't heard back. I don't know if they're comfortable with me saying their name, but, uh, I think I can, I think I can say there is legal ayahuasca in the United States, um, through, through branches of a Brazilian church. I just won't say who they are and where they're located.

Yeah.

Yeah. They, I haven't heard back from them. And they're, they're, it, it's interesting, uh, there's a lot of rules and I'm not a part of the church because I have kind of an issue with that. Um, but I get it at the same time, like, you know, they've got 70, 80 people in a room all taking ayahuasca and you need a lot of rules.

Yes. Sitting church-like, like sitting upright in a well lit space. Yeah. It's very different. Uh, it can be a little rough when it's rough. You know, like, like if you're not feeling well, you have to get up and walk past all these people and, you know, use the bathroom. Uh, it's brightly lit. They play a little music and then they go into a question answer.

So I've had one time when the medicine was really strong, I felt kind of nauseous and it was a really difficult, not good experience. But then I've had times where you're like, the medicine's a medicine and it's beautiful and it kind of gives you what you need. Um, so, so it's a mixed experience. It's, it is, uh, it's, but it's accessible, it's affordable, it's legal.

No, no, not really. Some people do. And you know what I thought about doing, but I didn't do, cuz I'm still a guest. I'm not a member is bringing a playlist on my music. Cuz when, when it's difficult for me listening to music moves me through it. So like the hippie circle I go to here, the musician, they're all live musicians, the shaman and all are helpers.

So it's just phenomenal music and it just, oh, it's super important. So this, I thought, well, I'll bring a playlist, I'll go sit outside and listen to it if I have to. Um, but no, these people you can do it twice a month. Right. So these are people who are really, really familiar with the medicine.

No. No. And you know, and I don't really, you know, and everybody purges differently, you know, so it could be crying and, you know, it could be a lot of things, but I think that, uh, I think it's sort of time to do it every two weeks. So it stays in your system. So it's kind of continually in your system working on you?

Um,

not most, but it's, it's offered. Yeah. It's totally, it's offered for that. So, yeah, so you could have it continually in your system. And then, you know, a, and it doesn't mean people aren't still purging, but these guys up front, it's sort of like your shaman, right? Who's leading your, your circle would not be purging during it, you know?

And so these guys are just kind of doing their thing. And I, you know, and some people do, but it isn't, it's not like the circles where it's encouraged and that's supposed to happen. And it's a little bit of a bummer because, um, I feel sometimes like you can't go as deep as you should because you can't, you don't feel comfortable purging.

Well,

well, well, that's what they, they do this and, and very much so. And it's based on a Brazilian man who started this church, the U D V or something, dme and, uh, and so it's got the same ceremony. It's a little bit of an offshoot of the Catholic church. Uh, but he was an alcoholic rubber tapper in a small town in Brazil and discovered ayahuasca and started, started the church down there.

And it, it was really like, uh, and everybody had to wear uniform. Um, but it was. You know, it, it's highly structured, uh, feels a little bit patriarchal, which is also kind of why I prefer my hippie structure, you know? Cause I'm like, it's such a feminine, uh, experience. But yeah, so, so it's very controlled and, uh, rigidly.

So, so, you know, that's the other part. And again, you know, yes, they need to do, like, you have to ask permission to speak, you know, for the question answer kind of thing.

Oh, yeah. No, it's, it, it's tough. It's tough and, yeah, no, it's,

I know. No, it's really like, it's really different. Uh, and it, it's not for everybody. Definitely because it's kind of like, you know, I, I don't know, like I have a friend who I go to my other circle with a lot and he's like, he always takes a lot and there's, he always needs a helper throughout it. And there's, you know, and he'll breathe really heavily and then there'll be an email that goes out, like, um, Hey, you guys we're gonna try not to breathe really heavily during ceremony.

He'll tell, you know, he's always that guy and you cannot be that guy at this place. Right. Um, and so I have to say, being a low maintenance person during these circles, I do appreciate it a little bit, uh, that, you know, and, and, and I think it's great that there's a safe space to cry really hard and throw up.

And God knows I went through that for years, but this is a little more, uh, I don't know, a little more 2.0. Uh, but yeah, so it's a different experience. It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say it's better. I wouldn't say it's worse. Uh, it's not for everybody. Um, but the medicine is still amazing. And, and that's really, you know, like I, I just, I can't see ever really wanting to go by other rules or wear the uniform.

But I, I do, I have gone there and then had these amazing, just very hard opening experiences.

Yeah. Well, and then Right, right. I, yeah. That's it. Exactly. And, and it's, it's very odd because when you think, like, to think it's like, how, how did it become legal? And they bring barrels marked, uh, Waka tea through customs. Yeah, yeah. And I know, so they took it to Supreme. To the Supreme Court Yeah. And won.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right. But we That's just like that, right? Yeah.

Okay. And I'll, and I'll see what I hear back from those guys too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. It's, it's very, yeah. It's, it's, and, and there there's like a playroom where the kids are sleeping and Yeah. And, you know, somebody takes care of the kids and it's very family, very loving community. And I mean, imagine it's like a, you know, community of people who are bonded through taking IOSCO on a regular basis.

So it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. Let's start, we'll start with foraging. Yeah.

Oh, sure. No, that was fun. That was fun. We'll see how Yes, I know. Well, let's see how we do. We'll see. How do this.

Um, sure, yeah. I live in Sausalito on a houseboat. Um, and God, I've been here about 15 years now. I have a truffle dog, two cats, a little native oyster garden. And during, uh, and I, I've worked as a writer, uh, author, journalist, and a chef. And, you know, I'd lived in, um, I grew up in Kansas City, then I moved to Alaska for nine years where, or nine seasons really, where I was a commercial fisher woman.

I worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Um, then I moved to New York City for graduate school for an MFA and creative writing. And I eventually made my way to the Bay Area. And I had to say kind of Sausalito was perfect for me. Like what I loved about Alaska, which is the nature and wilderness was kind of here in the headlands and point rays.

And what I loved about New York City, the culture and the diversity and the arts, uh, is in San Francisco. And the food, of course. Uh, so I just, and I did not have the suffering of Alaska and New York City, which those were both wonderful places, but, but difficult, uh, for me in, in, in many ways. Um, and so, but when I was in Alaska, Uh, for fun, we would go out and we would forage.

Uh, and it was also because back then there weren't any, the grocery stores, like the food was all imported from far away. It was kind of half rotted and really expensive. Uh, but we could go and drop crab pots or shrimp pots or dig clams. We could pick raspberries, get fiddlehead ferns and mins, uh, or not minors lettuce, but I mean, um, stingy nettles in the spring and, you know, just phenomenal wild salmon and halibut, uh, portini in the summer, you know, so, so it was just, it was a, a lot of fun.

And then I worked for fish and game out in Western Alaska, in the bush, and for two summers I ran a, uh, set sites on the Yukon Delta. So for Department of Fishing game, they wanna know how many fish are going up. You can take a scale off of a salmon and it has rings on it, and you can read it sort of like rings on a tree.

It tells you how old the salmon is. How long it lived in freshwater, how long in saltwater. Um, and so we would, we would do this and sometimes the fish would die in the net and so I would take them to the Yik fish drying camp. So the UICs are the indigenous people there. And they would, especially the older people, a lot of the younger people have full-time jobs now moved to Anchorage, but the older people had fish drawing camps up and down the Yukon Delta.

And so I would call and I'd be like, Angie, can we bring you fish? And um, and we'd arrive and she'd be out with her ulu cutting salmon. And uh, one time I remember it was, it was snowing and hailing in June up there and it was, you know, open skiff and it was just freezing and a pull up. And Angie's standing outside the snow cutting salmon.

And I said, Angie, I said, what? What's up with this? It's snowing and hailing in June. And she looks around and she's like, well, at least it's not too hot. So, so these guys have this sort of a really like, awesome perspective. Rose was another person and I, I took fish to her and she invited me in for a cup of tea.

And I said, okay, sure. And she puts down one cup of tea between the two of us and she said, I only have one cup, so you drink from that side and I'm gonna drink from this side. And um, and they also ate, I eat wild foods, you know, like, like one guy Benny, he, I remember going into his cabin once and he had a big mound of whale blubber and he was dousing it with warchester sire sauce.

And I was in the town of em and. I saw a seal in the harbor and I was like, oh, a seal. And everybody ran for their spears. I'm like, no, that's not what I meant. Um, so, so they had next level wild, wild food, but they, you know, they, about 70% of their food is wild and their, their incomes are quite low. Um, and so, so this, this food, especially salmon, I mean salmon, the word, their word for food and salmon are the same thing.

It's Nika and n e k a, um, I dunno if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And so it's, it's this very deep, visceral connection. And so for me, it wasn't just learning how they cut the salmon and dried them and smoked them. And they used the eggs in many, many different ways. They would bake them whole in a sack and slice them.

Even the salmon sperm they used, they would put it, uh, on, they would take it and dip it in seal fat and the kids would run around, eat them like popsicles. Uh, they fermented the fish heads and women would get together and eat those and get a little buzz from them. Uh, but it was also just how they knew that river, you know, like I, the, the delta, the Yukon delta is tough.

It's a tough river to drive a boat around cause there's just, you know, it's moving and changing all the time and you don't know when you're gonna hit something underwater. And these guys could read it like, like, like I would read a book, uh, and they could read what was happening with the salmon in these ways.

And that really struck me, this, this. Sense of, uh, coming to know nature, coming to, um, become a part of it through wild food. And what they did was subsistence. What I do is foraging, you know, I'm not trying to live off the land. I'm just trying to have a connection with the water in the land through wild food.

And so I started a little business during lockdown, um, similar to yours where I teach people how to forage mushrooms or seaweed and then cook with it over a live fire. And in a way to bring them into, uh, this, this world of nature to sort of go, oh look, it's rained. You, you know, in maybe one week, two weeks, three weeks, we're gonna have portini.

Or, oh, there's a lot of pelicans on the bay. They're dive bombing the water, the herring are here. Um, or it's springtime. The earth's hailing, there's seaweed. And so what are ways we can go out, even if it's just making your own salt and have this connection with nature. Take this, take this back to our home.

We can dry it, you know, use it how we're gonna use it. And remember that moment, remember that. And then we start to read the cycles of nature and enter the cycles of nature. And, and my great hope, my, my overarching intention is that we learn from nature. We take their systems cuz they're all regenerative.

I mean, salmon host one salmon up a river. You know, if you have a salmon in a river, not one but salmon in a river, host 1000 other species. From the saltwater, from the river, from the land, they fertilize the trees. You know, oysters improve their habitat for all the other creatures they contour the bay to, to help protect from storm surges.

Um, so how can we be regenerative species? And I think nature has all the answers. We just have to get out there and learn about it.

Well, I think people inherently crave it. You know, I mean, and I think that, you know, that's what if they, you know, people go out mushroom hunting for a day. If they find mushrooms, great. If they don't, they still had a great day. Right. You know, like just being in nature reduces your stress. It increases your dopamine and serotonin.

Like, like we need it. We crave it. But then we create these crazy lives that are so busy and everybody's overextended. Like, I don't know, when you were a kid, did you go like, play in the creek or, you know, climb in the trees and, and that kinda stuff.

Right? Yeah. And that's, you know, and I'm not now, it just, I feel like kids are, have these like insane schedules where they're like, club volleyball seven days a week and this, that, and getting into college and, and it's like, well, what about, yeah, that stuff going and catching crawfish or, you know, picking mulberries out of trees or, you know, any of that weird, like just flipping over a rock and seeing what's under it, you know?

Um, and so I think it's like inherently like a need and a want we have. Um, but, but people need to make that choice. And it's actually, I, I, and I realize some people you maybe live somewhere where there's, you know, not a park nearby or something, but just taking a walk in the morning or the evening, You know, like that.

And then you might be like, oh, those are blackberry bushes. You know? And, and that's another fun part about just taking walks in the city. There's gonna be, you know, wild plums hanging on a tree over the sidewalk. Um, I just let a, a walking tour, golden Gate Park and we didn't eat anything because it's illegal, but, and that's its own subject, but, well, yeah.

Air quotes, no. Yeah, no, I was leading it. I didn't wanna get on in trouble. Right, right. We're not gonna, you know. Well, but I was like, okay, this, these are invasive blackberries, oh, sorry. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Cuz I'm like, okay, there's one thing that's eating invasive blackberries. Right. Because those are just gonna get, spread by birds, become more invasive.

Blackberries or eating minors lettuce or chickweed or sour grass. Oxalis. But, you know, I'm like, don't eat, uh, the roses from the rose garden. You know? Yeah. Like it, right? Like, you know, you gotta, you kinda have to pick and choose. But, but there are people in this world, I think there's two kinds of people, uh, those who follow the rules no matter what.

And those who don't follow rules that seem to be sort of random rules made by bureaucrats for no particular reason.

I am here. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm here. I'm just giving a pause. Just pausing. Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You would go, you would be very thin. It is, uh, extremely thin, but it's amazing how much we do have, you know, I was started, like the day before we were waiting for the, for the call from Gavin Newsom for lockdown. I was at my friend Luke's house in Sebastian Bowl, and he has this backyard that just, you know, waist high weeds, and we, we put a blanket down and we were passing a book back and forth and reading to each other and.

Just, and then they made the announcement like, it's happening, we're closing, California's closing down, you know, due to Covid. And I looked around his backyard and it was fennel and stingy nettle and minors lettuce and, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, you know, your whole backyard is edible. I'm like, this is like a survival bunker back here.

So, so, so it's good to know that. And also it's like if it's your own backyard, you know, figure out what to do with it. Um, but, and you know, with mushrooms, what are we down to? One state park, we're legally allowed to pick mushrooms in. Um, that's like what those grows on my, they grow on mycelium. They fruit.

It's like picking apples on a tree. I, I Why We are not allowed to pick mushrooms in Samuel P. Taylor State Park or over in Oakland? Uh, legally, I, I think it's completely insane.

Mm-hmm.

It is. And, and I don't, you know, when they say reasons why I was up there and, uh, the guy in charge of enforcement, you know, was saying, well, you know, mushroom foragers go deep into the forest, and then they spread disease. And I'm like, well, so do hikers. So do animals are not, the disease is spread on the wind, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's it. Yes. And, you know, and that is, I think the basis of, of this, this crux of the issue is can human beings be in nature and not mess it up? And not only, not mess it up, be, but be a regenerative part of that. And that's, you know, I think, uh, we talked about braiding sweetgrass before, you know, and that is one reason I loved that book.

And she has the knowledge as a scientist and the wisdom as an indigenous person, the author Robin, uh, Wal Kimmer is, is that yes, yes, they can, you know, but it requires being educated about it, knowing how to do it and having access to it. Um, and so if they cut access off for people from nature, how are we ever gonna know how to, how to live with it?

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, and that's same thing with sort of being a scientist. You know, I'm reading her book on mosses right now, gathering moss, and you know, it's, It's something that a lot of people might not wanna do is sort of be out there quietly in the woods observing, right. And going to the same place year after year and observing.

Um, but it's, it, it results in incredible insights. And I, I, you know, when I was young, I was like, science, science, what am I, what am I ever gonna use? Science? Why, why would you need science? And now I'm like, oh, science is literally everything. So, so that's one of my big regrets, you know? Exactly. And I'm like, you know, I dunno, 18 year old college student.

Like, this is stupid, you know, now I'm like, oh no. Um, but yeah, and you know, I know some mushroom hunters and, you know, a lot of it, same thing with commercial fishermen and mushroom professional mushroom hunters, is that like they have time in the woods and time on the water and they have a. Very deep well of knowledge.

Right. You know, 20, 30 years into it. Um, and they're non-indigenous. They don't have the ancestral and they don't have the same perspectives and the same sort of take on it. But, you know, I, uh, there's a mushroom hunter, John Getz AB in Oregon and his professional matsu, Taki and truffle hunter. And he has been arguing for a long time against clear cutting.

And, you know, he is trying to convince people that the forest is worth more alive than dead. Um, and he lives in a region, sort of around the Florence, Oregon area where they, after following the Warren Vietnam, they took this idea from Agent Orange. And after they clear cut. They would fly over with helicopters and just dump herbicides and pesticides, uh, in the area to carry, kill any new growth, any new wild growth because they want, did, wanted it competing with the pines and the Douglas fur.

But it, you know, it killed everything in the soil. It got into the rivers and the water systems and then it started poisoning people. And, you know, the people were, children were being born with really terrible birth defects. People were coming down with cancers, uh, that had never been in the community before.

And they had to fight the US forest, you know, service. They had to fight the logging corporations. They had to fight the politicians. So this is something that is, you know, kind of in our lifetime that's gone on this somewhat sociopathic relationship with nature that, you know, we see our, our mushroom hunters, who some people would think they're the ones taking all the mushrooms.

They are fighting for the preservation of the forest. And same thing with commercial fishermen, like in Alaska, they wanted to put the pebble mine in, which was a deep copper gold mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay. And Bristol Bay is a natural sockeye salmon run. Last year, I think 75 million fish came back.

And so it's been the commercial fishermen leading that, uh, fight. And now, What's happening is, uh, a big challenge is on the baring sea. There's these big factory trawlers. They're taking, I don't know, two to 5 billion pounds of one species pollock from the baring sea every year. And the bycatch is horrific.

What's the, what's recorded is 141 million pounds a bycatch from everything from killer whales to king salmon to herring. You know, it's 5 million pounds of halibut is a li allowable bycatch. So the indigenous people I worked with on the Yukon Delta have not been allowed to fish for salmon for the past two years.

So it is their only livelihood for the most part. It is their subsistence food and it is their way of life. And this is going into, uh, filet fish at McDonald's, this Pollock, and it's going into that, um, fake crab. You get kind of the California roll. And so, but the small boat fishermen in Alaska are fighting against this.

A lot of the indigenous people are trying to fight against this. And so, you know, this is kind of, you know, where we come together and we can come together as environmentalists and as people who kind of make their living from the land. And as people who steward the land is there can be a sustainable relationship between humans and ocean and land.

We just can't have corporate profits.

Thank.

Exactly. It's like, you know, if you eat Hering outta the San Francisco Bay, which I've been advocating for a long time, like here's this amazing food source and it's was sold just for its eggs for a long time to Japan. That was our commercial fishery. And they made the, the bodies into like fertilizer or, you know, pet food or something.

But if we ate that, then if something happened on the bay, if there was, you know, it wasn't being protected oil spill on the bay, that would be polluting our food source. So it's this really visceral connection to our, to our food, to our waterways. And, you know, instead, you know, people are always like, aren't you afraid to eat something from the bay?

And I'm like, you're eating tilapia from China. You know, you're, that stuff is being grown in like old parking garages over in China. Um, I'm like, wouldn't you rather eat something that's from your own backyard that you know what's happening and you have a say and you can like donate or participate with San Francisco Baykeeper to help keep it clean and healthy.

So that's exactly, it is like take ownership and stewardship of your local areas and, and, and going out and knowing it through wild food is a really intimate connection. I mean, even more so I think than like kayaking or hiking. Um, that's why when these things of like, oh, not allowing people to go into any forest in California and pick mushrooms except for Salt Point.

And, and I think their solution, my biggest fear is that they're gonna make it illegal to pick mushrooms in Salt point instead of. Yeah, that's what they keep saying. And I, I just, I, I'm like, why would you do that? You know, you're, you're, you're just creating a generation of mushroom criminals. Cause Yes, we're not gonna stop picking mushrooms.

I mean, that's, that's the other part is for the people who work. You know, I have friends who, they've got regular office jobs. Mushroom season happens, they take their vacation week, they go as far as they can and as hard as they can, picking mushrooms. And then they've got tons of mushrooms. I just give them to people and host dinners and, but it's kind of this addiction, you know, it's like, it's like this is what I do this time of year and what a great and healthy addiction to have, you know?

Oh,

oh, exactly. And then, and then the bonus, and then you come home and you cook your portini and they're frigging delicious, you know? Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah. It is, and it's, and it's the levels of dopamine that happened. I was, during lockdown, a friend hired me to tutor her daughter, and she was about, I think 11. And she hated online classes. I mean, my god, those poor kids. Like, I think, I think my classroom is bad enough, right? And then online classes. But so every Friday I would take her out, her, my dog, and I, and um, you know, and sometimes I look over and them like those, she's like climbing up a rock cliff.

And my dog is like in the, in the sort of rib bones of a deer. And I'm like, okay, this has gotten a little too primal here. We got, we've gotten. But, uh, we found Portini one day and Emma found them. And she was, you know, she was so excited. I just heard this little voice going, Hey, there's something here. And then I was like, how do you, after we were driving home with her Procini, I'm like, how do you feel?

And she's like, I feel like balloons were released inside me. I know. Isn't that awesome? And then, and then her mom cooked them and, and everybody told Emma how amazing they were at dinner. And, and I know when my nieces and nephews came here when they were little, that's what we would go out and we would, I have a wild plum forest near my house.

Um, and it's literally just this little walk in that's filled with plums and they're over in Marin. There used to be a lot of homesteads and ranches here. And so there's this one place I walk my dog and it's got like a few pear trees and you know, like some, some regular plums and tons of wild plums. Uh, again, it might be illegal that I'm taking these and they should just be left to rot on the ground.

And, and people get very weird about it. Even people listening to this will probably write like, you know, you shouldn't take that. It's, it's against the, the, the rules. And other people go, oh, you can't take fruit off people's trees. And um, and I don't go into people's yards and take fruit off their trees, but I, but it is legal.

If a tree is hanging over a sidewalk and there's fruit dropping on it, then you can take fruit off of those branches. And it is just something where it's like, well, if you've got way more fruit than you can eat, which is almost anybody with a fruit tree, why don't you just give it away to people? Let people pick it, put it in bags out front.

Uh, not so much over here, Marin.

Well, they get, I, you know, I, I'm sure people are fine. I actually, I had one day I was driving past this corner and I'd always been eyeballing these cactus, right? That had prickly pair on them. And, uh, there's a guy outside one day, so I pull over, I'm like, Hey, can I have some of those? He's like, yeah, but just be careful.

And I came back with tongs and big leather gloves and, and then pretty soon all these women filled up behind me and they were, I think from Guatemala and they're like, Hey, hey, can we have some? And they had bags. So I was like taking 'em off of tongs and putting 'em in their bags. Um, those are terribly painful though, like there's no way to not get those millions of little, uh, pricks on you.

But God, they're beautiful and delicious and nobody wants 'em. So that's one of those other nobody wants.

Sure.

Yeah, well, I'm gonna, so I'm starting a love shrub club and I'm gonna, people are gonna be able to try it, give me feedback. Uh, I probably have memberships, um, but I'll be basing it out of Oakland, uh, because psilocybin has been decriminalized over in Oakland. Um, and so kind of how this ended up happening is I, I was a Burning man this year and it was super hot and I just, I was, and the two biggest problems with Burning Man are dehydration and not getting enough sleep, um, for many reasons.

But, but the heat was a big part of it this year. So I said, I'm not gonna drink alcohol. Uh, because those two things have had been having kind of a, a negative impact on me lately. My sleep, my gut health, uh, just overall health. And it wasn't like I was drinking tons of alcohol, but like two glasses of wine and I would just be off the next day.

So I, I sailed through Burning Man, um, with only doing psychedelics and no alcohol. And I did great. Like, like half my camp or 30% of my camp came out of it with Covid. You know, you normally have this kind of big lag time, but I was like, huh, this feels good. So I extended it. I'm like, I'm not gonna drink alcohol for a year.

Um, and. And so I started making myself mocktails because I'll tell you like the, I actually, the non-alcoholic beer is pretty good, but the non-alcoholic wine, particularly red, is just terrible. It just makes you really sad. It's just so bad. So I was kind of wildcrafting bitters, you know, out of, out of different barks and roots and flowers and stuff.

And, and I was also making, I started making these, uh, shrubs because partly I quit sugar and then I started intermittent fasting and I, I learned, uh, about your sh blood sugar regulation and that apple cider vinegar is really good for, for keeping it regulated when you eat food so you don't have a spike and your body doesn't release insulin.

Um, and I know this all sounds, this is, yes, I've been listening to the Huberman podcast a lot, but, but these are things the more I'd gone down the rabbit hole. So I started making shrubs, which is basically, um, Apple cider vinegar with fruit that you just kind of soak the fruit in the vinegar and then you puree it and then you strain it out.

And, and normally it calls for a lot of sugar, but I'm trying to be off sugar, so I don't use sugar. So they're very tart. And then I put in kind of these different bitters ingredients and I have, uh, Turkey tail lions main and Rishi that I like to include in different ones. So adaptogens, dandelion roots, burdock root, um, ashwaganda.

So I've been trying to focus them for like, say, brain health. So I might do like blueberries and lions main and ashwaganda. Um, but uh, I. Well, so that was the, the latest layer that makes them most exciting. I thought, well, these are mocktails, but I want it to feel like a cocktail, right? So I started doing what I call a social dose of psilocybin.

Uh, so it's about a 0.34, so a little higher than a microdose. You should feel it, but you won't hallucinate, right? Um, and, and, and so when you look into the effects of alcohol, like damage in your brain and your liver and all this stuff, psilocybin does literally the opposite, right? So it's rewiring your brain for creativity, you know, the whole thing, the apple cider vinegar, everything's great for your gut.

So it's like the fun effervescent high of a cocktail, but it's really good for you. Um, and needless to say, people have been beating my door down for these. So, uh, and so, and I'm very excited about it because I have to say, it isn't just when you drink it, like for me, it hits me in my body first. It sort of feels like a flowers blooming.

Um, but the, the effect over time is just better and better. And I, I know that you're a microdose and you've done some kind of classes on the benefits of microdose over at SF four H in Oakland, but you might be able to speak to that probably you've been doing this longer than I have. Um, as far as like what, you know, the benefits of overtime, microdosing.

Sub perceptual,

right? I mean, that's, that's a, yeah. Yeah. And just like, so I'm just really figuring it out because, you know, I, I guess in 2024 we're gonna have a vote to legalize psilocybin in California. Um, you know, it's, it's decriminalized in Oakland and in San Francisco, so I guess you can possess it, you can grow it, you can take it, but you can't sell it.

No, but that's why I'm gonna do a club is you can join a club and then have access to it. Um, I imagine I'm very much in the gray area. Legality.

Right, right,

right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, right, right. Well, and I mean, and that's that, it's funny because I do think that like there is this sort of, uh, gray area that as a forager you kinda live in, you know, to survive covid, a lot of people had to live in, you know, like everybody started, oh, not everybody, A lot of people started like cooking out of their house and selling their bread or selling meals to neighbors or, you know, kind of figuring out like, okay, how are you gonna survive through get, get through this?

And you know, I have to say, uh, personally, um, I had an older brother who had P ts D and was an alcoholic and, um, was being treated and depression. He was being treated at a VA hospital in Texas and he ended up committing suicide outside of it. And yeah. And a part of that was, um, he was going through a very, it was in a really, really bad shape and.

I offered to take him to Peru to do Ayahuasca. You know, I was like, I think this is the only thing that can help at this point. Um, and cuz my brother had, he always was troubled. It was, it was big stuff. And it, it was like, it, you know, microdosing would not have done the trick. It was like he needed to go to the jungle for 10 days and have shaman sit on his ass, you know, and get those demons out into the jungle.

Um, but he wouldn't do it. The rest of my family was like, oh, that sounds weird. Well, the VA hospital was mailing him jars of Vicodin. Right. Uh, which is standard practice. So opiates, so they're mailing an alcoholic, opiates. And my other, one of my other brothers called and asked him to stop doing it. Uh, cuz he really, he very much went off kind of the deep end.

And then he did, he killed himself. Uh, he, he didn't die right away. He was flown to a burn unit in Lubbock, Texas. And later one of his sons, my nephew Ek, uh, went to college in Lubbock, Texas. And at first I was like, why would anyone go to college in Lubbock, Texas? Uh, but later he was up here and he told me that his dorm room, he could see the hospital where his dad died.

And yeah. Yeah. So this is, you know, a society where, Alcohol is totally normal. You know, all, you know, my nephew's college friends are all, everybody's drinking until they black out. And then, uh, when somebody has a problem, our medical establishment gives them opiates. Right. But psychedelics are illegal. The very things that could save his life could have saved his life, you know?

But so when I think of my shrubs, you know, I was talking to my nephew, kk, who lives in Denver now, and he is like, Hey, let's, I'll be your first employee. You know, he, he is like, cuz I'm trying not to drink. And I saw what happened to my dad and, you know, and so when I think about it, I think, well, you know, my brother had P T S D, but my God, everybody around him was impacted.

And, and so, so the social dose for me is really about helping these people. Everybody has these like everyday traumas, right? Uh, or like complex P T S D. It's like if you have an addict, uh, somebody with mental illness, somebody with P T S D in your life, a spouse, a girlfriend, boyfriend, a child, a parent in a sibling, uh, then, then you are part of it, right?

And, and so I do think when they're talking about like, we are gonna use psilocybin for vets with ptsd ts, that's great. But there's a whole lot of people who would really benefit from these lower doses and alternatives to alcohol. Um, and so, so that's really, you know, what I am hoping, I'm hoping that we can get to a place of, and really, you know, they did a huge big smear campaign on cannabis, L s D, psilocybin, M D M A, because kids didn't wanna go and kill and die in Vietnam, you know, that's, that's, and so that was kind of the basis.

They're like, oh, well, let's see. We have all these social problems. Women can't work. We're incredibly racist. Uh, these people don't wanna go die in Vietnam. The problem must be the drugs, you know? And so now we're like, ok, the problem was not the drugs. Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I do, I think that there is something, um, very powerful happening.

And I really also believe, and I know you've had experience with Ayahuasca, that these drugs are gonna help awaken people into how do we live on planet earth in a way that we're not, uh, killing ourselves and everything else on the planet.

Right.

Yeah.

Oh, everybody. Everybody is struggling with some kind of pain. Yes. You know?

Right. And it's part, and it's part of the human experience. Yeah. And it's, it's not, you know, it's not a magic bullet. It's like, I've been, God, I've been doing ayahuasca for 12 years now. You know? Um, and it's, you, you have to come out and make changes in your life, and sometimes you don't. You have to keep reliving the same lesson over and over again.

But I do think it's, it's just a remarkable tool of, you know, I, I don't know, life is still always gonna have challenges, and that's okay. You know, and there's always gonna be pain and disappointment and, and all of that. But I think that, um, I think these things help with resiliency to it. I, I, a friend of mine is a therapist and she works with ketamine, and she works, uh, with at-risk people that they get, I think they can do the treatment.

Um, it's in the East Bay and it's like $35 right? For, for that with therapy. And she said, you know, they return to these lives that are still very stressful. Uh, party is stressful, you know, in this country. And, and she said, but they have developed a resiliency, uh, to, to the stress in their lives. And, and I think that that's one part of it.

I think another part of it is the complexity and the richness of life, right? That, um, I feel less afraid of dying. I mean, I'm not sick and dying, so I, I, but. You know, I, I feel like it's probably a really beautiful thing. Um, you know, and I, and I feel that way because I've left my ego behind during these, during these ayahuasca journeys.

Um, and I realize that like, oh my God, there's not just this phenomenally beautifully beautiful earth that we get to live on, but there's this galaxy and galaxy beyond Galaxy out there. And it, it's, I mean, that's what, it's just something that's like so far beyond my comprehension and that's ica I still don't understand.

Like, I can read about it. I know it's these two different plants. I know it's D M t, I know it does this and that. Uh, I think one of the more entertaining things for me is listening to people who've never done it, tell you why it's bullshit. So I'm like, they're like, oh, it's just a serotonin high. I'm like, have you done it?

Um, it's kinda like, you know, people tell me, you know, like about Burning Man and they've never been. And I'm like, you gotta go. Like, if you go in, it's not your thing. I'm fine with that. But you've never been, you know, you don't, you gotta, you can't tell people what it's about and you know, so I do. I think that, um, and I, and what I've experienced with it is just really.

That earth is just this magnificently creative energy and it's love, you know, like deep down, like the earth gives us this incredible food and this incredible beauty. And I think for me, the experience of foraging and psychedelics coming together is tremendous gratitude and just recognition. And I also think I am more and more valuing beauty and awe and trying to make space for those two things in my life.

And I think that is available to everyone, to everyone who can walks outside and looks up at the moon at night or sees a sunrise or sunset or a flower that comes into bloom. Um, and that there, there's now more and more studies being done on awe and how it's actually really good for us,

right? And then you bring more of those in your life and then we can kind of switch the voices and switch the negative talk. And then, you know, if we can live with this sort of, this simplistic gratitude, um, this, you know, I think when I was young and I was ambitious, I was like, if, if this happens, if my book does really well, then everything will be better, you know, or this relationship works out, then I will be happy if this happened.

And now I'm like, You know, I have a really good cup of coffee and I'm looking out at mount ta and I have some fresh figs. You know, I don't have fresh figs right now, but you know, I'm like, oh, life is good. And it's really nice. And I think that's what they talk about when they say people are happier as they get older.

And you can't figure that out cuz you're like, you know, your, your, you know, your hip hurts and this hurts and everything else, but you're like, oh, no, no, no. The simple things are, are really wonderful and, and that, you know, and I, I feel like, I mean, if you wanna go forage seaweed, when you get up at the KRA and Dawn and you make it to the Sonoma coast and the sun's coming up and you just have this miles of tide pools and seaweed, I mean, it is just like, it's like nothing else.

Um, and it, the, the seaweed has just got you there, you know, but, but the full effect is being there. Um, and I think that if you can, the more you can kind of. Give yourself as a gift, really these experiences of just taking walks or, you know, bringing more beauty into your life and let giving yourself the space and time for awe then, like, you can really like these other parts of yourself, right?

The, the parts of yourself that wanted to flip over rocks and stomp through streams. When you're little, they're gonna come back and they're gonna start being, you know, this part of your life that introduces more fun in playfulness and happiness to it. Um, it's, it's not spending more money, you know, it's not buying more stuff.

Um, you know, that's, I'm super into Wildcrafting as well, and a lot of my house, I made my tiles out of oyster shells. I made a lot of my lights out of like seaweed. I tan salmon skin. I made l e d lights with laser cutters. Um, and I, granted, I, I don't work a full-time job, so, and I don't have children, so, so this is how I'm able to do it.

But, and you know, and, but a lot of it I did because it, I like the stuff is this stuff's so expensive in stores, you know, I was looking at Restoration Hardware and I was like, it's 90 bucks for this light. I wanted, I needed six. I'm like, that's almost 600 bucks. So, I just made a bunch of lights and the ones I made, I like way better because they're totally unique.

Um, so that's, you know, other choices we can make, you know, it's like, well maybe if you don't have the money for something, see if you can make it and don't, you know, and see if you can go out and pick some sticks and leaves and things up and make it, and, you know, I can send you pictures of my lights.

They're gorgeous. Um, and they're way better. I was able to, I bought two of the Restoration Hardware lights and I made four of the other ones, and the ones I made are way more interesting.

Yeah. And so that's another thing, you know, to get us back to that place where, you know, that's, I think we talked about crafting before, right? Is like being bad at something, you know, because I've, I've done things that did not work out and I'm like, oh shit, that, you know, it's like, and, and I'm like, that's not gonna work.

And uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, and I felt pretty bad about the hours I put into it. But I think that doing things you don't have to do professionally or super well, um, are also just, they're so fun, you know, and that's what go, you know, going out and, you know, making things or wildcrafting things or foraging.

It's like there's nothing at stake. It's just for fun.

Oh, all the time, you know, and I, you know, I don't even, like, I make a good part of my living cooking professionally, but I, I hate to use the word chef cause I just, I feel like now. But, you know, but I have a chef, I have a chef's jacket that I wear. Uh, yeah, it gives you authority like that, that, you know, but I didn't, I, you know, I didn't st anywhere and I, I was doing an article on Matthew Kamer up at, uh, Harbor House Inn in Elk, which is, he's just off the charts, frigging talented, phenomenal, uh, perfectionist, you know.

Uh, but I was doing, uh, an article about the disappearing kelp forest, and I was staging with him for the day to do that. But we went out foraging and, uh, we got some sea urchin and some seaweed and stuff, and he has, you know, he's worked in Japan, he's worked everywhere. He paid his dues. And I, I did, I was sitting here going, I'm not even telling him I cook, you know, you know, um, absolutely not gonna even mention that.

Um, and I think foraging, he just had me clean the seaweed, you know, I didn't want him to see my terrible knife skills, you know, any of that. Um, and, you know, but then also, as far as being a journalist, you know, it was a freelance piece for the b bbc and I, you know, so I haven't really had some off the charge writing career either.

You know, I have a bunch of freelancing I've done, but I haven't been on staff anywhere. Uh, my books haven't been terribly successful, and, you know, and so, um, but I think it's the same thing. I, what I love about. Being able to do all this, uh, is that, uh, it, it's just this natural curiosity, right? Um, and that you get to follow this and always be learning.

It's a little stressful to always be learning on the job and not have mastered it. And, uh, and, and I also think there's certain people like us, uh, you, myself, like we are pretty much unemployable in a corporate setting, you know? Yeah. Nobody's gonna look at your resume or mine and be like, yeah, you look like a team player and we wanna bring you on board in middle management.

Like, not gonna happen. I do fantasize about it at times out, like, like, you could get one of those wardrobe boxes delivered, you know, and have your big coffee and commute. And I, and then I'm like, no, that's not ever gonna happen.

Yeah. And I, and you mostly just have to show up and then you have benefits and you would have a retirement. Um, yeah, I know, I know, I know. And, and some people really need that security and other people need kind of constant stimulation and you are who you are. You know, I, unfortunately, our society does not support really, um, creativity, creative people.

I, I feel like, cuz if you're a really creative person and you go to a job and you're expected to do the same thing every day, it's gonna drive you crazy. You know? And, and you're gonna have to cut off big parts of yourself to be able to do that. Um, and you know, I, I was, uh, with a friend of mine and we were hiking just this past weekend and she's an artist and she's a very successful artist.

She does, she's a woodworker and she does environmental art. Her name's Adrian Segal. She's over in Oakland. And she was talking about how. How the surgeon she knew was overpaid. And I was like, surgeons could never be overpaid. I'm like, you know what they do versus what we do, you know? But I said, you know, and, and, but if you look at like, some disparity in income, it's insane.

You know, it is a crazy how much some people, like you could be a great artist, uh, who's doing quite well, and you're still making half as much as a mediocre, uh, person doing coding, right. In tech. And, and so I, I think that, like I've been taught, you've probably been taught there's something wrong with us, you know, because we're not out there doing our, our regular jobs and have the big, you know, whatever retirement and this and that.

But I'm like, why doesn't our society support, uh, people that are a little more divergent? You know, people that are creative and people that can, uh, support community and create community. Um, you know, if you, we, we talk about what our values are and then we look at where does our, where who look at our pay scales.

You know, look at like, I mean, I live over in Marin. I live in an affordable housing community that's floating on the water, which is a miracle amongst miracles, uh, and the old Gates cooperative. Uh, but you know, over here now, the houseboats are becoming more and more and more expensive. And you're getting people, you have to be a lawyer, work in pharmaceuticals, uh, some sort of, you know, upper end technology for both couples or both, both members of the couple.

So, So it, it's, it's really, there's certain fields, uh, that pay very, very, very well. And then a lot of the other ones, it's, you know, people can barely survive. And I know we keep talking about this in the Bay Area, but you know, there must be ways, right? There must be ways to create a diversity of socioeconomic levels that can thrive in an area like the Bay Area.

Um, you know, this is part of like biomimicry living like nature. The more biodiversity of an area, the more resiliency it has. And you like downtown San Francisco now they're probably wishing the artist, you know, weren't all kicked out.

Well, I think, I think, well, no, theoretically everybody thinks art is, is, you know, good. You know, not everybody, but you know, you'd say if you, if you pulled people in the Bay Area, people would be like, yes, art is important, right? We like our art galleries. We like, we like that. And, but if we look at it, we go, well, how are we supporting that?

How are, and, and, and you know, when you go, oh, artist grants, well then what? You get 10 people a year get what? 20 grand, 10 grand? You know, that's not, you know, what, what we need is, we need healthcare, we need affordable housing, we need, like, people, you don't get to be a successful artist right out of college.

It takes years, you know, and, and it's, I think it's completely fine and healthy to be doing other jobs besides your art and that you don't have to be an artist to be a creative. Um, there's a lot of things you can be doing, but like our food workers, the chefs, like, you know, there's a lot of people are working in these kitchens as sous chefs.

They're making maybe 20 bucks an hour, you know, where are you living in San Francisco on that? I mean, and, and, and we know that people in San Francisco, the Bay Area value how remarkable our food is. You know? And, and people need to be able to work in kitchens to be able to master their craft. Um, you know, and so that, so that's it.

I think it really is, is like mastering a craft or in our cases, um, doing a whole bunch of different things. But, but, but there, there kind of needs to be a, a, a way that people can, can survive and do that and learn, and then bridges for other people. If you're at a job that's soul sucking for 20 years and you really wanna do something creative, you know, having that be availability for people, you know, I, I, I don't, and I don't have the answers to that, right?

I do not have the answers to any of that, but I think it starts with sort of, I I, I, there's a really great book by a woman named Lynn Twist called The Soul of Money. And she was kind of, her husband made, started making a bunch of money and she would say, if you asked her what she valued, she'd be like, oh, art my children community.

But she said, if you looked at their checkbooks on what they were spending money on, it was none of those things. And so, you know, so that's where I would say that like, if we look at, you know, what, where is the money going? That will tell us what we value. Um, and so I think it is something that maybe it isn't so much changing the money, maybe it's changing the values and the money will follow.

Does that make sense? You know, so if we can say we value the arts, and then same thing, the same way we take people into the woods and go, here are mushrooms. You know, that the arts community can bring people into the studios and goes, here's our process. You know, it's not like we, you're just born with your work in sf, M O M A, um, or here's the process of building an artisanal chocolate company.

You know, here's, here's the process of becoming a chef. Here's the process of being a boat builder. Um, and, and that over time that if we start to change our values, that then the money starts to flow I into different ways, and it's not all just dumped into finance or dumped into tech.

I did well to cookbook and we're, uh, yes. I'm so excited. Uh, so it's called, uh, forage Gather Feast, and it's, um, it's coming down on Sasquatch books based outta Seattle. So it's West Coast specific, so it's California, Oregon, Washington, and Alaska. And it is gonna be, it's food from the water shoreline from the woods, and then from urban spaces, so sort of the flowers and the greens, um, berries and that kind of stuff.

So we are still shooting it and we are just, uh, yeah, we're still, it's not fully fully done, but I'm very excited. It's gonna come out in February or March, 2024. So it's a year out.

It's a, it's an enormous amount of work. And this is my, this is my fir first cookbook. I have several prose books written and published. But, but the difference for the cookbook is a, it's a lot of work cuz you have to test everything, you know? Um, and so you have to, and if you're doing it on forage food, sometimes you can't buy the food.

You have to go find the food and then test the recipes and then shoot the recipes. And so you'll be sort of like, wait a minute, there were candy cat mushrooms here yesterday. They're not here anymore. Oh no. Um, but what's fun is while you're doing it, you realize like, people are gonna get this book and not just read it, but they're gonna make food from it and then they're gonna give it to their friends.

And so it's almost this like, three-dimensional experience of a book. So that part of, actually, of it is actually kind of exciting and fun. And it's shot in Alaska, uh, Lumi Island, Washington and then California. And I have for the past few years, been doing, uh, wild Food camp in Alaska. Um, Homer was my old stomping grounds where I lived.

And my friend Allison up there owns a kayak business and she has property on Heskith Island. So this big beautiful house, she calls the Smokey Bay chalet and then the Surf Shack and a couple of wall tents and then a sauna right on the water. So we, uh, the photographer Marla came up for that last year.

And we shot a bunch of stuff. We do like hands on Berry Gillette making, breaking down the whole salmon, opening oysters, uh, port. There were tons of portini there last summer. So that. Oh, it's so fun. It's so, I mean, Alaska's ridiculous. It's like a different place in time. It's, and, and, and Catch Mac Bay is just, uh, it's just a great, great love of my life.

It's, there's a big glacier running down in the bay and fjords and live volcanoes in the distance, and it, it's, it's phenomenal. And then Le Island is a little different. Um, this one's at Nettle's Farm, which the man who owns that is a commercial fisherman, Riley Starks, and he started Lumy Island Wild, and he has the first permit for commercial seaweed, um, seaweed farm there.

And he's just a character and a ton of fun. So we go out kayaking there. We kayak Alaska too. And then, um, we're gonna pull crab pots this year, and then people learn how to forage seaweed there. And, yeah. Uh, that is in July. Let me pull that up. Uh, Alaska is the second weekend of August. And, let's see, let me, island is 21st, 22nd, 23rd of July.

And then Alaska Wild Food Camp is August 10th through the 13th. And so those, um, yeah, so those are coming up. And so the book kind of was shot and a little bit sort of organized around those. Uh, and then, and you know, down here, I ki I have some, some different ones. I have the urban walking tour. I do a couple seaweed and a couple mushroom every year.

And so, yeah, so, so the book would go along with that. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of figuring out like, you know what, what. What other sort of, I mean, the problem, not the problem. I mean, you have people who are now helping you do the, the wild food camps, but it's like, it's kinda hard to grow a business when you have to be physically present for everything.

So, so I'm trying to figure out like, do I do videos? You know, like how do I, how do I not be totally physic physically present for that? Um, and also sort of keep, keep it, keep with the hands on stuff, but kind of grow in a way that that doesn't necessarily, and also as you know, uh, doing events that are weather dependent can be a little hairy.

And I, we've been really lucky with Alaska, uh, cuz I've had sometimes up in Alaska, especially at West on the Yukon where it's just rained sideways every day for five weeks. So far that has not happened with food camp. And August is the driest time there. But last year for Loy Island, I was heading there and it was just pouring rain and then the sun came out and we had two days of sun.

And so I moved it back to July because of that, cuz that was in June. And I'm like, okay, so these are our best chances for really good weather. Uh, so, but people in Alaska and people in Washington are a little more used to just putting on their rain jacket and going and doing what they're doing. It's, you know, California, we are not this, this, this year may have changed us a little bit, but definitely not.

Yeah, so it's in Flora and Fungi Adventure. So that's my, that my website, my, my writing and like moth stories and all that stuff is on maria finn.com, which is, uh, my personal website.

They are, they're, well, you should come. And they're, they're kind of like a, like a deep dive, you know what I mean? Alaska's ridiculous. You gotta go to Alaska. It's like North America 200 years ago. I mean, there's fewer than a million people live there, and it's three times the size of Texas and, but almost everybody's on the road from Anchorage down.

So, so you just, uh, you can get off the road a little bit. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's really, I mean, I, when I worked on boats, I remember being on Kodiak Island and uh, I was standing there looking out at she off Straits and miles and miles and miles of killer whales were swimming down. She off straits and Yeah.

And then like Storm Petrols filled the sky and you're just, you just feel like you're witnessing this, you know, incredible sort of this way the world used to be. And so, uh, so it is, I highly recommend it. And we can, we can take this conversation offline.

Yes. Thank you for having me, and I wish you lots of luck with the podcast and of course, with, you know, our shared mission of, of helping to bring people gently into wilderness and find delicious food. So, yeah. Yeah. Same back at you. Uh, all right. Thank you Iso. Okay. Ah-huh. Bye.